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| Heretic's Haven | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jul 15 2006, 09:34 PM (1,627 Views) | |
| Jane | Jul 15 2006, 09:47 PM Post #21 |
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Board Bitch!
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Diggy - 8.8.05 True dat, Jules!! Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I dont think that we as a society needs a god. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I don't think that Jesse meant GOD... like the christian GOD. I do believe, however, that he was referring to a believe in a higher being. Even the most rustic, basic societies had a religious system/believes, therefore it is proven that cultures and societies IN GENERAL can't live without some sort of religious system. If it's based on Jesus, Zeus, Thor, Olofi or Belie Belkan, it doesn't matter, just as long as there are rules and the ever present believe that there is something higher above. Some people just can't think of being in this world without a purpose set by some higher being. Think Louis. We (heretics. LOL) being of a more skeptical nature, know that it is possible to live without a religious system. It is also, to me, a matter of choice. You either choose to believe or you don't. But the majority of people NEED to believe in something, they need to have that "line that can't be crossed". Of course, there are millions of factors that come to play here... But bottom line. It's a matter of choice. And Clones DO have souls. |
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| Jane | Jul 15 2006, 09:47 PM Post #22 |
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Jane - 9.8.05 Clones and souls. I have wondered this myself, maybe we need to find one and quiz them to see if they have a soul! I think Jules made a good point with test tube babies etc...I hadn't thought of that and that points to them having a soul. I suppose we need to define what a soul is? If a soul is the spark within us that makes us live then clones must have one to be able to move and speak and think and exist. Souless beings would be zombies. I think Jesse's definition of the soul is deeper than it just being fundamental to life, and that's why the difference in opinions. Also when does the soul enter the fetus, is it immediate or does it come later? I always think maybe a miscarried fetus never got a soul.... |
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| Jane | Jul 15 2006, 09:48 PM Post #23 |
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Michele - 9.8.05 Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I do believe, however, that he was referring to a believe in a higher being. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- that is what I meant too, Diggy. And you are right, for thousands and thousands of years socieites have been based on some type of belief system that consisted of some kind of higher power to explain the world. But I think that as we become more advanced and as a society (and I am talking about industrialized, modern societies, not tribal and other socieites that we have on earth) we probably wont need to believe in a higher power. But I may be wrong and I think it is still a far ways off anyway. I do believe that most people do need to believe in something. I am in the minority that I do not need it. |
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| Jane | Jul 15 2006, 09:48 PM Post #24 |
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Jesse - 12.8.05 You all have raised good counterpoints. I still maintain my position but I will be seeking for theories on this. My mind could be changed you know. But for now....clones are souless devils and Bush is the leader of them! |
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| Jane | Jul 15 2006, 09:49 PM Post #25 |
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Jules - 15.8.05 Hmm maybe some would think they had no souls because of the reason they were cloned for. I mean, artificial insemination and such are more than likely done for people to who cant have children to have them. Clones are more just for spare parts and are not totally and completely wanted for anything other than that purpose. Maybe it has something to do with the intentions of it all? |
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| Jane | Jul 15 2006, 09:49 PM Post #26 |
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Michele - 16.8.05 I see what you are saying Jules but the DNA does not know the "purpose" that it is being used for! DNA is what makes us who we are, soul and all! |
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| Jane | Jul 15 2006, 09:49 PM Post #27 |
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Jesse - 16.8.05 Nonesense! DNA does not define the spirit! DNA defines the matter of flesh, or living organisms. |
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| Jane | Jul 15 2006, 09:50 PM Post #28 |
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Michele - 16.8.05 DNA has a lot to do with our personalities and emotions. Without those we are souless. |
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| Jane | Jul 15 2006, 09:50 PM Post #29 |
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Jules - 17.8.05 Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- the DNA does not know the "purpose" that it is being used for -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I wonder, if its an EXACT copy of ones dna,if then that original dna has already used up the soul in the original? I just thought that up right now, does it make sense? Does your soul get cloned with the dna too? |
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| Jane | Jul 15 2006, 09:50 PM Post #30 |
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Jane - 19.8.05 DNA is the blueprint for who we are, but our personality isn't purely biological, our external surroundings and the people in our lives also influence who we are and how we turn out. Other people can influence our ways of thinking and being without is knowing it. It's nature v nurture and I think who we are is a product of the two because they cannot be seperated. But we are also more than this. My gut feeling is the soul is something else, something seperate from the biology of our bodies, in that it is the part that doesn't die when our bodies die. It existed before us and will go on existing after us. How much of "us" in in the soul and how much is in the brain is something I've not quite decided yet. |
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| Jane | Jul 15 2006, 09:51 PM Post #31 |
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Jesse - 23.8.05 What Jane said! Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Does your soul get cloned with the dna too? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Absolutely not. We are more than our bodies, bodies defined by DNA. What composes a soul cannot be measured by conventional means. Souls have no mass. Souls are forms of energy. Energy does not have DNA. So there Michele! |
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| Jane | Jul 15 2006, 09:51 PM Post #32 |
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Diggy - 31.8.05 Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- DNA is the blueprint for who we are, but our personality isn't purely biological, our external surroundings and the people in our lives also influence who we are and how we turn out. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- That's just it, Jane. You got it. Identical twins do NOT have the same personality traits!! So do clones! And they HAVE souls, otherwise they wouldn't be animated, they wouldn't think or comprehend the world around them. They'd be machines. Bloody machines!! Imagine a "harvest" of human bodies used only for medical purposes!! That's just insane and it goes against nature itself! What gets to me is how are they going to harvest "mature" organs?? HUH?? Are they going to take cloned babies and keep them alive like in "The Matrix"?? Connected to tubes and electrical wires? THAT is sick! I believe that cloned babies are still human beings and if they are taken care of and raised as any other normal child, they will be like any other normal human being. Soul and all damn it. |
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| Jane | Jul 15 2006, 09:52 PM Post #33 |
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Michele - 1.9.05 you go diggy! I agree. Jesse, all human life has a soul, whether clone or not. Whether it was conceived by artificial insemination or the normal way, it doesnt matter |
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| Jane | Jul 15 2006, 09:52 PM Post #34 |
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Jesse - 2.9.05 do you know any clones? do you have a way to verify that belief? neither do I, but my argument makes more sense I say |
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| Jane | Jul 15 2006, 09:53 PM Post #35 |
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Jane - 23.9.05 Religion I have observed that the major religions on the whole have the same principles. They follow a God, they believe in good and evil, right and wrong, they believe you should have faith, that life has a plan you should trust in. They believe in prayer and worship, in coming to together for a common good. They have leaders and people they aspire to be like. The only major difference seems to be which faith you are born into. I'm generalizing but if your parents are Christian you will be Christian, if your parents are Muslim you will be. There are some examples of Asian Christians or white muslims but they are few compared to the grand scheme of things. The truth is religious people are brought up in a faith, the same faith and religous code their parents believe in. And so it is true for them. We also beleive in Father Christmas until the truth is either told to us or we discover it. Anyway back to my topic...this is what I propose for discussion. If we must have religion (another argument) why can't there be one unified global religion that everyone who wants to believe believes in? Wouldn't that cut out so much hatred and violence! Can the principles of religion be unified into one that satisfies all? Maybe we could agree to there being several Gods (as some religions do anyway) so everyone can be right. Maybe the whole world could agree on certain principles by which to live your life (again I don't believe you need religion to do this but some people seem to need it). How can anyone claim to have a monopoly on truth? It might as well be reinvented by the people, my invented unified religion is as valid as any other. |
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| Jane | Jul 15 2006, 09:53 PM Post #36 |
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Michele - 26.9.05 that is a very nice idea jane but it would never work, it would never happen. Most people who have faith tied to a religion are that way caus they honestly believe that their religion is the TRUE way, the real god and the way that that god really wants us to be. They think that everyone else is wrong. Most people do not see religion as something that was created by us, a social construct, but rather has god's way. To say that religion is something invented by man alone would cause teh majority of the world's population, no matter what religion they affiliate with, to go to war. Humans do not like to even think let alone admit that they are wrong, that their beliefs are an ilusion, that what they have been dedicating their whole lives to is unnecessary. Therefore, it would never work. Which sucks but what can you do? |
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| Jane | Jul 15 2006, 09:54 PM Post #37 |
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Diggy - 11.10.05 Well, isn't that what Christianity is trying to do, Jane? They tried to make everyone believe in one god, make everyone a practitioner of one religion. The same when Rome conquered Greece... The same when Spaniards conquered the Americas, and settlers from Europe came to the US. And what was the result? Rebellion. Human nature is a difficult thing to explain. It is in our nature to rebel against things imposed upon us. Therefore, if there was one unified standard religion, there will always be one who will rebel against it and have someone else follow him... and faster than you know it, you have a revolution, and it's war all over again. Think "The Matrix". Also it is human nature to have duality in their personalities, to have good/bad all wrapped up into one. Why do I mention this? Well, there is always a balance to things. You can't have good if it weren't for evil and viceversa. We would all be robots, or people without wills or individualism if we all followed one standard thing. We woudn't be able to be ourselves and following one standard religion would be like a dictatorship. It wouldn't give space for "grey" areas, it would be right and wrong and no space to argue a point. It would be awful... and well if it were for the greater good... Think "Star Wars" and the whole "force" concept. That's a good example right there about the delicate balance that there should be between goodness and evil. |
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| Jane | Jul 15 2006, 09:54 PM Post #38 |
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Jesse - 3.1.06 I would like to give some thoughts on demonic possession, inspired by my recent viewing of The Exorcism of Emily Rose. In the movie, the story is mainly told through the trial of the priest who administered the exorcism and the religious explanation for what was happening to Emily was given, and the medical/scientific reasons were given. I was quite impressed by how the movie makers compared and contrasted the two points, showing the same scenes sometimes but with the different perspectives applied. But in the end I suppose I believe the girl really was possessed by something, a demon or evil spirit. If I can believe in evil entities why not believe that they can possess the living? In the movie she is supposedly possessed by six demons, one of them being Lucifer himself. I find that ridiculous. Firstly I don't believe in a prime source of evil. That is a force equal but opposite to god who can create everything that is evil in the world. I believe in god, but I don't believe in the devil. I do believe though that there are forces out there who may believe themselves to be this devil, because spirits can be liars and quite mad. There could even be a spirit powerful enough to exert the belief among other spirits that there a leader in this devil, Satan, or Lucifer. Even if was such a supreme evil being, why would he waste his time possessing a young girl? That makes no sense to me, what is there to acheive? So I really do believe the girl was possessed by evil spirits, and that the medicines she was given hindered her own spiritual defenses against the later attacks (and supposedly the exorcism ritual itself). I need to read up on this case more, because it was allegedly based on a true story. In the movie Emily was eventually visited by the Virgin Mary and given the choice of leaving her suffering possessed body or staying and fighting and thus becoming a martyr of sorts. Well I don't believe in the Virgin Mary, but I do believe there may be some feminine force who throughout the ages had guided people and has gown through various names. Today's Virgin Mary was yesterday's Isis and Ishtar and such. Believing that this feminine entity exists is the only way I can account for its continued appearance in various cultures and times, but I cannot say for certain whether this spirit is ultimately good. What purpose can one have in appearing in a stain on a wall other than to goad people into blinding worshipping an idol? Anyhow, I guess my point is that good and evil spirits I believe exist. Why evil spirits try to possess the living I do not know. Do they yearn for the flesh? These have to be beings who have never been in the flesh before. Therefore they were never human because I don't believe human spirits linger for long in this realm unless they are "lost", and how they came to be lost is beyond me at this point. As for exorcism itself, I don't understand how the recitation of words in a dead language is effective against driving out spirits. Didn't work too well for poor Emily. Maybe it isn't the words themselves, but the faith...the power..and therefore the energy of the person reciting the words. That being the case, can I in my strong convictions be able to drive out some demon or spirit using my own words but with the same or equal faith/power/energy? Can I use say "Get the fuck out of here you cursed miserable weak pussy ass spirit" instead of "The power of Christ commands you?" And why religicous icons like the cross and the name of Jesus Christ supposedly work against them? Again, is it the power/energy of faith that is at work, and not necessarily the faith in and of itself? How does possession and exorcims fit in your own theology? |
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| Jane | Jul 15 2006, 09:55 PM Post #39 |
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Larisa - 6.1.06 definitely that she was posessed. I believe in all a manner of things like that. Its bizarre that religious people who can believe such things as demons and angels in the Bible will so readily pass off something that could actually give them real solid physical proof, you know? My uncle lived in Africa for four years and hes a tough hard core guy, but he said that the exorcisms and other bizarre spiritual things that went on there truly scared him. |
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| Jane | Jul 15 2006, 09:55 PM Post #40 |
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Jane - 15.1.06 I do believe something supernatural is at work, and maybe it is possession or maybe it is something inside a persons brain that we don't yet understand, but in both Emily Rose and the Exorcist the demon inside them said it was the devil. I don't buy that... I've seen some documentaries about possession and sometimes the exorcist is a fraud and is making out people are possessed when they aren't. Usually these are religious freaks. Power of suggestion and all that. But I've also seen things documented that are truly scary and truly beyond an individuals control. I'll never forget this man on Unsolved Mysteries (I loved that show!) and water would pour down the walls of the house for no reason. It also happened when he was held in a jail cell. There were wounds on his body too and other evidence of possession. If Polterguiests exist, and if they can move things around rooms and cause distrumbance, maybe they could get inside the body and attack from within? It always seems to be adolescents that get possessed and they have also been associated with polterguist activity. Maybe there is a link. |
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