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Heretic's Haven
Tweet Topic Started: Jul 15 2006, 09:34 PM (1,624 Views)
Jane Jul 15 2006, 09:34 PM Post #1
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Jesse - 3.6.05 (uk dates sorry!)


My thoughts have swam deeply while reading a book called Talisman. In it, the authors are building on a theory concerning some secret organization which from I can thus far deduce has been charged with preserving and promulgating certain teachings over the past couple millenia. Teachings which time and time again the Christian movement that ended up being known as the Catholic Church has sought to eradicate through sword, fire and merciless bloodshed. I will report more on this as I read but for now I wanted to pay a kind of homage to the free thinking individuals who in this day and age are able to openly debate issues which in the past we would have been put to death for even questioning.

Diggy and I started this idea while discussing Rock and thought it would be worthy of centralizing the thoughts which move our spirits. At the time I wanted a title for a thread which would symbolize the mystery school elements of the past with the secret societies today. I'm becoming to realize that no matter the title, in the past all who practiced the notion of free thought and alternative religions were labeled heretics and persecuted by the so called religious entity that won out, presently the Roman Catholic Church.

The spirit of the heretics lives on even in politics by those labeled radicals, or anti-patriotic.

Here that stigma will be lifted, and heretics will be free to unite again.

Perhaps, within ourselves or as a collective we will be moved enough to rediscover answers and truths which have evaded us in the past. The path of knowledge, and enlightenment, for the soul does not begin until one begins to question in their mind.

While any subject pertaining to spirituality and religion, human destiny and the mysteries of the cosmos are open for discussion, we have to start somewhere. And the last place we left off was on whether souls are born innocent, and whether they can remain innocent.

I say in brief that souls are born innocent, but most of the innocence is lost by the corruption of this world. This does not mean that a soul cannot be good if not innocent, I believe it can. I just think some of us spend our lives either searching for elements of that lost innocence, or just are content with swimming in the muck of this world.

I for one am not content, and am less concerned about restored innocence than why it was allowed to be lost in the first place.

Would I not have the right to stand in the face of "God" and shout "What the fuck happened?" That though, is an avenue I am not presently following.
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Jane Jul 15 2006, 09:35 PM Post #2
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Diggy - 3.6.05


Finally! A thread for us inquisitive souls!

I believe that there is a difference between having innocent soul and having a pure soul.

An innocent soul is that which is open to anything and everthing regardless of it's goodness of evil. Due to this innocence, this kind of sould can be lied to and manipulated at will. An innocent soul will see good in everything and will trust implicitly.

Now, a PURE soul, like I described Rock's is that which maintains it's high standard of goodness and it is wise enough to know the difference between good and evil. This soul can not be manipulated or taken for a fool. A pure soul rises above petty disturbances to keep itself clean and good.

Pureness can be corrupted, yes... most certainly. But you see, a pure soul even when tarnished by a speck of corruption will strive to correct, cleanse itself and learn from the experience and use it to evolve and better itself.

My daughter is an innocent soul. When she grows up, it is my hope that she becomes a pure one. With enough experience and knowledge to achieve a higher spiritual level.

As for wether or not we are born innocent, of course we are born innocent. We didn't come to this world knowing everthing, or with a chip in our brains that once we popped out of our mother's womb would come into action and teach us about the world.

Catholics are adamant on the fact that children be baptized to "erase" the "original sin" with which we are born. And it is the same Catholic Church that is also adamant to the fact that children are innocent. Contradictory, right?

How can a child be innocent and be born with "original sin" therefore making it a sinner since birth? It is absurd. If you ask a priest wether or not a child will go to heaven if it dies, he will answer that it all depends on wether or not the child was baptized. What kind of stupid statement is this?

They mean to tell us that all children who are not baptized are not welcomed into heaven when Jesus himself said that children will be the first in his realm?

All this is enough to do what my brother suggested:


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Would I not have the right to stand in the face of "God" and shout "What the fuck happened?"
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AMEN!
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Jane Jul 15 2006, 09:36 PM Post #3
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Michele - 3.6.05


Baptism is a crock of shit! And what exactly is this original sin that children are born with, I wonder? Could it be the original sin is the child "touching" the vagina of the mother during the birthing process? Maybe the forbidden fruit of the mother during the birthing is the supposed original sin.
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Jane Jul 15 2006, 09:37 PM Post #4
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Jane - 4.6.05


Innocence, purity, why are these things valued? True children are most likely innocent, but I'd rather be the better informed adult that I am, aware of the nastiness of life as well as the goodness. I don't think we are ever truly pure, and why would we want to be? Can we still be good if not pure? I think we can. To be pure would be to say we were perfect and no one is, that's not how we're meant to be. We learn from our imperfections, we learn from the darker side of life as well as the light.
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Jane Jul 15 2006, 09:37 PM Post #5
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Jesse - 4.6.05


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We learn from our imperfections, we learn from the darker side of life as well as the light.
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Well stated, and I believe that with no quesiton. Oh and are you cutting and pasting the text Jane? I aim to save as well but the only way I know is cutting and pasting into Word.

Diggy I want to examine your definitions of innocence and purity more:

An innocent soul is that which is open to anything and everthing regardless of it's goodness of evil. Due to this innocence, this kind of soul can be lied to and manipulated at will. An innocent soul will see good in everything and will trust implicitly.

I can agree with that. But then it stands to reason from that definition that innocence is simply a lack of knowing or understanding. An innocent soul then cannot comprehend the concepts of good and evil well enough to differentiate and form an opinion, or take a stand for or against them. An innocent soul then will always be open for abuse. An innocent soul then will never learn and advance itself.

Now, a PURE soul, like I described Rock's is that which maintains it's high standard of goodness and it is wise enough to know the difference between good and evil. This soul can not be manipulated or taken for a fool. A pure soul rises above petty disturbances to keep itself clean and good.

Here is where I really take issue. Rock since Diggy has used you as an example I will continue to do so with no disrespect intended. I think you are at a level where you won't be offended by this stance I take in using you to counter Diggy's defination. Now, are Rock's maintanece of "high standards of goodness" defined by his choice of not drinking and abstinence? Is this what makes him "pure"? Because I drink and fuck, this makes me impure? I certainly know the difference between good and evil, and I can state that my soul cannot be manipulated or taken for a fool but that in and of itself is a foolish notion. For some of us it would not be easy, but we all are still suseptible to manipulation on certain levels. Has Rock then achieved such a state of perfection and enlightment that his purity is further based on his inability to be manipulated? Now I can surely rise above petty disturbances to try to be clean and good, but I know that sometimes I will fail in that, because I am still learning. I recognize I am faulty and will strive at every turn to be better, but being trapped in the flesh will always make us imperfect until we are released from it. Then the true measure of souls can be assessed. What we take from learning in the flesh into an existence without it will determine just how pure or good or innocent we are. If one thinks their soul is pure while still in the flesh than such a blind arrogance will stagnate their spiritual evolution. Take in mind the statement Jane made which I copied above. I think Rock recognizes that he is still learning like the rest of us. Though he chooses not to indulge himself in certain excesses I think he does so because they are not something he needs to experience right now. That is not saying that he will not in the future. So I don't believe Rock can be classified as a pure soul. None of us can.
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Jane Jul 15 2006, 09:38 PM Post #6
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Michele - 5.6.05


I love your statement about pure souls jesse, well said!
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Jane Jul 15 2006, 09:38 PM Post #7
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Diggy - 6.6.05


Through my definition of what a pure soul, and by using Rocks example, then we are ALL pure souls. Our essence is pure because we seek the truth above all other things and we stay true to ourselves.

To me pureness is not about black or white, but about truth, no matter what color it is.

Ok, think about that prostitute from the bible who cleansed Jesus' feet with her hair. She was a prostitute, a "sinner", yet her soul was pure. Enough for Jesus to recognize it and give her passage to heaven. Basically, pureness is not about what you do in life, but what you believe in, the truthness of your soul, and the constant will to evolve in the spirit!
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Jane Jul 15 2006, 09:38 PM Post #8
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Jesse - 6.6.05


That woman was Mary Magdalene and she was not prostitute, that is a Christian lie!

Basically, pureness is not about what you do in life, but what you believe in, the truthness of your soul, and the constant will to evolve in the spirit

But what if you believe in the wrong things? Are the souls of those who are Catholic pure when we don't believe in what they do? But they believe it, with their heart and souls. Or the Muslims? Of course to either of those two faiths we are heretics in our own beliefs but are we all pure then simply because we believe our souls to be truthful in our beliefs and that our souls are evolving because of those beliefs?
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Jane Jul 15 2006, 09:39 PM Post #9
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Diggy - 6.6.05


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That woman was Mary Magdalene and she was not prostitute, that is a Christian lie!
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It has been stated over and over again, that that woman was NOT Mary Magdalene! Ok, I made a mistake, because the prostitue, and the woman with the hair thing were two different cases, but NEITHER of them was Mary Magdalene. And that has been stated a lot of times.


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But what if you believe in the wrong things?
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Again, who is to say what's wrong or right? Like I've said before, are all the children that have not been baptized in the christian faith going to hell? Just because they don't believe in something "standard" doesn't make them wrong. It is right for THEM.

Using Rock as an example again. He believes in Wicca. Through it he reaches his sprituality and is happy with it.


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are we all pure then simply because we believe our souls to be truthful in our beliefs and that our souls are evolving because of those beliefs?
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Each person is a different case, but to wrap it up, it is my believe that that is true. If we were to judge each person according to their religious beliefs then we would be falling on the same category as them. Each religion has it's own level of spiritual evolution, and each religion speaks to each individual in an unique way. Ultimately, terrorist have the "jihad" but again, it's more a socio-political thing than anything else. But, muslims do have their own way to purity, as catholics, jews and christians do.

I believe that here comes into perspective the universal law of simply doing good and what feels right inside one's heart. I've met jews, muslims, catholics and christians that are pure of soul and very evolved in their spirituality. The fact that they are from different religions or have different views doesn't change that fact.

No one has the truth graped in their hands! It's only through knowledge and being true to oneself and ones belives that we reach that spiritual evolution that makes our souls pure.

Again, with everything there are exceptions... Like Hitler, Napoleon, Stalin... and all the evil people we stumble upon in life.... They believe in something but ultimately the goal was totally selfish and mass destructive.
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Jane Jul 15 2006, 09:40 PM Post #10
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Jane - 12.6.05


Diggy I agree with you about no one knowing the truth. What works is what works for people and what gives them strength. There are minorities who try to manipulate what they think is truth in order to commit atrocities in the name of God. That's why I think all religion should die.

But there must be some universal truths, not from which religion is born, but by which we can be pure (if you believe we can be.)

In the light of there being no religious truth, do you think it is possible to be a non-beliver in God, but still be pure? I think a good life can be lived without needing a god (ie my own!)

We need to create an anti-religion, one that is just and fair to all people of all races, provided that they live by universal rules that benefit outselves and our communitites. If anyone tried to start such a crusade, would it end up being a dictatorship? Would it fall down like communism did? Can the world ever be harmonious and happy and free?
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Jane Jul 15 2006, 09:40 PM Post #11
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Michele - 12.6.05


do you think it is possible to be a non-beliver in God, but still be pure? I think a good life can be lived without needing a god (ie my own!)

yes, it is possible, I am living proof! I am a good person, even though I have made some mistakes in my life that hurt other people, inheritantly I am a good person. I have my morals and I stick to them. They may not be all the same morals that christians or other religious folk believe in, but what the fuck do I care what they believe in? Whether god exists or not is irrelevant. I really dont believe that he does, but even if he does I do not need him in my life. Period. I am a strong person who can handle things thrown my way in life without needing the "guidance" of some spiritual being to get me through. In fact, it gives me greater comfort to not have a god in my life.
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Jane Jul 15 2006, 09:41 PM Post #12
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Jesse - 13.6.05


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But there must be some universal truths, not from which religion is born, but by which we can be pure (if you believe we can be.)
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This is an absolute fact. There are universal truths and it is these truths I strive to uncover and live by. One we all know and was preached by Jesus as the Golden Rule, do onto others as you would have them do onto you. Basically that is an explanation of karma. The universe is composed of energy on the postive and negative spectrums. The old axiom what comes around goes around also explains this. What ever type of energy you surround yourself with or put out is the type of energy which will continally be attracted or returned to you. This is the Law of Attraction. A negative person will always have negative things happening to them because that is the energy they are surrounding and attracting themselve to. So the way you treat another person, good or bad, positively or negatively, will eventually result in good or bad things happening to you in a kind of boomerang effect. Some things take a long time to arc back. Some won't appear again until ones next life (as I believe in reincarnation). Even science proves like energy attracts like energy.

Universal Truths, or Laws, are inherient in every facet of existance and simply cannot be disputed because they just Are.


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In the light of there being no religious truth, do you think it is possible to be a non-beliver in God, but still be pure? I think a good life can be lived without needing a god (ie my own!)
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This is true. Sad but true. It's the following of the whole Universal Truths/Laws thing. One can adhere to a certain set of ways without paying homage to the one who originated that way. Though I believe in God and chose to give whatever force God is credit, God really doesn't need or want that credit.
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Jane Jul 15 2006, 09:41 PM Post #13
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Jane - 2.7.05


We need to move on the discussion to other areas.

Just one more question, what happens to the un-pure souls when they die? Do you have to be pure to progress, or just learned?
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Jane Jul 15 2006, 09:41 PM Post #14
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Jesse - 7.7.05


It is in my belief that become recycled. That this they are reincarnated onto this earth again and again until they are able to progress spritually enough to attain another level of existence...or rather to graduation to a higher class of learning.
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Jane Jul 15 2006, 09:42 PM Post #15
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Diggy - 12.7.05


It's called Karma baby!!!
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Jane Jul 15 2006, 09:42 PM Post #16
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Jesse - 6.8.05


I've got a problem with this karma thing. Common belief has it that what happens to you in this life is as a result of things you did in another life. I had this class in college and we discussed this. At the time a big news story was that bitch Susan Smith who strapped her kids into the car and had it sink into a lake and then say the car and the kids were carjacked by a black man. I was so pissed when the truth came out. We discussed this in class and the instructor said maybe those two boys did something in a former life in which they had to pay for what they did in the way that they died in this life. I was incensed at such bullshit. I believe that children are born innocent and the world taints them, introduces sin into their lives. So that aspect of so called karma I don't believe to that extent. You are born and are given the oppurtunity to learn again. What you did in your past life, the things you learned, or did not learn, do carry over subconciously, but they don't determine what happens to you, like being strapped into a car by your demented mother and drowned in a lake!
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Jane Jul 15 2006, 09:44 PM Post #17
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Jesse - 8.8.05


From The Island thread: clones.

I believe that clones have no souls. I believe that the natural process by which the soul energy enters the body, that unique signature that makes you a part of the Oness of the Universe, can only come from the force that created the process. Now humans, ever intent on uncovering and ursurping and assimilating and duplicating every aspect of existence, can like Dr. Frankenstein create a biologically functioning clone but it will not have the emotions and uniqueness of a true human being, a true spirit and soul which will transcend the body.

If the true essence of life were that easy to create, then we truly would not need God anymore. A society that does not God anymore will decay and perish.
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Jane Jul 15 2006, 09:44 PM Post #18
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Diggy - 8.8.05


So, if they have no souls, that which makes them unique and part of the One, it would be alright to harvest them and use them as "spare parts" suppliers.

If they have no souls, then they are nothing more than useless pieces of meat.

I believe they have to have souls because even if they are created "artificially" they are still alive, they don't die as soon as they are born. That energy that makes it's heart beat, the same energy it used to feed from its carrier, it can only be the energy given from the Source! No scientist can give life out of the blue! It has to have that "something" that, like you said, that "essence" for it to keep itself alive!

And it is impossible for a clone to be born a baby, to be nourished, raised as a person and not have a soul. If it didn't have a soul it wouldn't be able to reason or function or be a part of society, or even to feel.

Also, it HAS a soul because when it grows up it is an exact genetical copy of you, but personality wise, depending on it's surroundings, it will be totatlly different from you which means that they DO have a soul.
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Jane Jul 15 2006, 09:45 PM Post #19
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Michele - 8.8.05

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then we truly would not need God anymore. A society that does not God anymore will decay and perish.
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I totally disagree. I dont think that we as a society needs a god. I dont think we would perish if ever came the day that everyone no longer believed in god. I think that god is a social construct and that the true "god" is society itself, not an actual higher being.

And Diggy, I completely agree with you 100%
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Jane Jul 15 2006, 09:46 PM Post #20
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Jules - 8.8.05


Do test tube babies and artificially inseminated babies have souls? I mean, if it wasnt for the intervention of science, they would not exist....hmmmmm
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