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| Questions; Specific Book Questions | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Mar 28 2006, 05:50 PM (4,192 Views) | |
| Balthier | Nov 27 2006, 08:27 PM Post #31 |
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Well what I am to understand, so far, is that the "same pay same effort" is not of "pay" but in basic resources. This is all well and I believer a very solid foundation. I'm not saying we are to remove that, for that is somewhat grounded in already, i'm saying we remove the "luxury items" way towards recieving them because all in all, it doesn't seem well thought up at all. If you noticed, I posted a "luxury items" thread in economics where hopefully we can come up with more ways that they can be distributed or reformat the way that is now. |
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| Assassin | Nov 27 2006, 10:06 PM Post #32 |
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The lefty guy
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No, you recieve the basic necessities regardless of effort. Effort earns you luxury points, which are in effect a type of currency, which you can exchange for non-necessary items of your choice. |
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"Shoot, coward, you will only kill a man." - Che Guevera "Our greatest fear is not that we are inadequate, but that we are powerful beyond measure." - Nelson Mandela Project Legacy - Building the Future
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| Balthier | Nov 28 2006, 01:02 AM Post #33 |
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Lovely for the ideal but what i'm saying is that effort isn't measurable because there is too much diversity in work for it to be measured. I'll restate this one, and final time. This idea isn't concrete. What you keep bringing up is an ideal that has no foundation. Work isn't measurable without certain scales and evaluations for each profession. Until we develop these scales on our own and show what working "hard" consists of for each profession then this ideal should not be in "the book" because it is too poorly detailed for any real consideration. |
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| BlackLiger | Nov 28 2006, 08:34 AM Post #34 |
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The middle ground guy.
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We should use the physics equation. Work = energy expended / time spent. |
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~ Chris Anyone know how to make bombs out of cheese? Not that I need to, its just a curious idea, if it can be done. | |
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| TomRK1089 | Nov 28 2006, 02:30 PM Post #35 |
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Magnum PI
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Well, first let me state that as advances in technology come about, I think we'll see a vast decrease in such "hard labor" jobs as mining and the like. But yes, how does one quantify work? Especially in the more intellectually based fields? As I see it, one might try to institute a scale based on the successful completion of n assigned task. Therefore, one would not be payed based on hours put in (which is easy to manipulate for permanent job security--Mass residents, the 'Big Dig?') but on the actual completion of said task. There's more incentive to get it done quick and get it done right than a simple hourly scale. And ordinarily, I would have responded to this debate much more quickly. However, I've been spending a lot of time with my girlfriend as of late, so obviously that takes precedence.
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Think twice before you speak, and then you may be able to say something more insulting than if you spoke right out at once. Evan Esar, Esar's Comic Dictionary | |
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| Balthier | Nov 28 2006, 05:51 PM Post #36 |
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I agree there may be a decrease, especially if resources are handled as delicately as talked about, but they will still exist. What achievments can be made from mining except producivity increase? It isn't fair to make a miner work increasingly hard while a Oceanagrapher walks on the back and collects seashells where he/she finds a fossil and is awarded a gift certificate. There is no equality in that at all. We must develop these scales I believe first because I believe what we have now is unfair and unequal distribution.
Sounds very very similar to a wage system to me...Whos to say that one scale for a job isn't going to caluable except by certain amounts of productivity, and not achievments? Then it becomes labour-value in the form of luxury items (certificates?). It seems to resemble capitalism very much to me. But I can see how this would work for lets say a botany advancement where a botanist managed to make a hybrid from tomatoes and blue berrys and created the blue fruit (Which I know the government has and are keeping it in secret and I want it!), well, thats rather remarkable and should ammount to luxury items certificates but not all jobs are going to have possibilities like that, which we must take into full consideration.
Ah, goodluck with that |
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| TomRK1089 | Nov 28 2006, 08:00 PM Post #37 |
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Magnum PI
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Well, not quite. See, it's not a per diem rate; it's based on completion of the task. Rather than messing with an hourly system, which encourages extension of the job at hand. Hence my derogatory comment about the Mass highway project. |
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Think twice before you speak, and then you may be able to say something more insulting than if you spoke right out at once. Evan Esar, Esar's Comic Dictionary | |
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| Balthier | Nov 28 2006, 09:44 PM Post #38 |
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Well yes, but that is very well an example of labour-value, which was created by capitalism and all the capitalists. Of course since Project Legacy is neutral, we don't have to frown entirely upon this. I am, simply because from the history that I know of capitalism and all its components aren't something that I get cheerry about, but perhaps when under different managment in a different system this could be used in more legit terms, as to the actual labour-value, but surely not equally.
I don't believe I came upon that yet, mind sending me a link to it? |
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| TomRK1089 | Nov 29 2006, 12:41 PM Post #39 |
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Magnum PI
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Soitenly. Mass Sues Big Dig Construction ^^Basically, it's an enormous mega-highway they've been working on for the past decade in Massachusetts. The ultimate in job security for construction companies. |
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Think twice before you speak, and then you may be able to say something more insulting than if you spoke right out at once. Evan Esar, Esar's Comic Dictionary | |
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| Assassin | Nov 29 2006, 01:04 PM Post #40 |
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The lefty guy
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Methinks we should avoid a consequentialist pay system. Hard work != completion of the task. Not necessarily. And the same task would take more effort from some people than others. Were edging back towards meritocracy here, personally I dont like this direction. And what about when there IS no task to complete? We were saying in another topic somewhere that redundancies due to automation of the industrial sector wouldnt matter because pay is based on effort to contribute to society, rather than the actual contribution. So long as you make an attempt to help out, you still get luxury points. This idea of a consequentialist reward system completely contradicts that.
Agreed. This task completion based economy would create MASSIVE inequality, we might as well save ourselves some effort and stick with the current capitalist system if were gonna have that. |
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"Shoot, coward, you will only kill a man." - Che Guevera "Our greatest fear is not that we are inadequate, but that we are powerful beyond measure." - Nelson Mandela Project Legacy - Building the Future
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| Balthier | Nov 29 2006, 07:02 PM Post #41 |
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Sounds like a low-funded, amateur construction team crafted that thing! Not to minimalize the person who died, but those construction workers were either being so overworked they couldnt focused, they just sucked, or their funds werent enough. Perhaps they should find that out.
Indeed, which is why I brought this up and also why I created the "luxury items" thread. Lets reformat or start from the drawing board! |
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| TomRK1089 | Nov 30 2006, 06:12 PM Post #42 |
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Magnum PI
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Also, re: The Book, last night I discovered some drafts I did over the summer on a greatly improved version, so I'll start typing them up to replace the current one. |
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Think twice before you speak, and then you may be able to say something more insulting than if you spoke right out at once. Evan Esar, Esar's Comic Dictionary | |
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| Assassin | Nov 30 2006, 06:27 PM Post #43 |
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The lefty guy
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However, its not the current Project line, its just Toms opinion. And its not gonna become the official line either if I can help it <_< |
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"Shoot, coward, you will only kill a man." - Che Guevera "Our greatest fear is not that we are inadequate, but that we are powerful beyond measure." - Nelson Mandela Project Legacy - Building the Future
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| TomRK1089 | Nov 30 2006, 06:37 PM Post #44 |
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Magnum PI
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Currently it's (the Book) just Tom's opinion because no one's bloody well offered to help write the damn thing. If you can't be bothered, don't complain. |
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Think twice before you speak, and then you may be able to say something more insulting than if you spoke right out at once. Evan Esar, Esar's Comic Dictionary | |
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| Balthier | Dec 1 2006, 12:18 AM Post #45 |
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Umm, correct me if im wrong but isn't this forum how were helping you write it? Drafting up our opinions, formatting conclusions. I'd say were helping you out bloody damn well!
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12:35 AM Jul 11