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Sign if you think tiers are pointless.
Topic Started: Feb 10 2008, 07:52 PM (265 Views)
Robtcee13
I am a fish.
*Signs* I shouldn't need to say why. It depends on the skill of the player, not the abilities of the character, which character is good.
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The Ultramind12
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Fist of the North Star
They certainly existed in Melee.

In brawl, they don't. EVERY Character has a counter. For instance, Lucario will dominate people who can't kill until higher percentages. On heavier guys that kill at lower percentages, like Bowser or Dedede, he'd have trouble.

There are a few things I'd like to say, though...

Fliers are broken. MK can GLIDE AROUND HYRULE TEMPLE without landing and can even fly UNDER levels like Final Destination using only natural jumps. Their recoveries are ridiculous.

Pit's recovery is more so. He gets several jumps, then he activates his UpB and gets MORE JUMPS. Seriously, it's stupidly broken.

MK attacks WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY too fast and seems to have HUGE priority. It is my opinion that he's the most broken character in the game.

Dedede is a big guy with multiple jumps, and his UpB gets not only a large amount of vertical distance but also huge horizontal distance. He also has the strongest attack in the game (His Forward Smash can kill at 60-something% uncharged, and 17% fully charged. It's really, REALLY slow, though).

Ike is just a monster. His attack FX sounds like a freaking cannon, and rightfully so, cause he hits like one. His FSmash (Not Final Smash) is the second strongest attack in the game. He's also faster than you'd think; anyone who can perfect the timing with his attacks will be nigh unstoppable.

So it seems the tables have turned; instead of light, fast characters ruling the game, the big, heavy characters do. WHAT A TWIST.
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Robtcee13
I am a fish.
The only reason tiers existed in Melee is because of how well characters used advanced glitches techniques. Those characters who suck at Wavedashing? Bottom tier. Instantly. Characters who have one tiny flaw? Bottom tier. Characters who are in the least bit slow with ONE of their moves? Bottom. Tier.

Hell, I saw someone Bottom Tier Kirby in Brawl with no knowledge of the gameplay. He also Middle Tier'd Meta Knight. I think tiers are entirely pointless because every character has equal amounts of advantages and disadvantages. For one, Meta Knight sure can recover, and kill with his FS, but a smart player would simply dodge his FS or make him fumble it with ranged attacks. A smart player would also kick the crap out of Ike and Lucario's counter moves with grabs. Smart, skilled players transcend all tier lists.
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The Ultramind12
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Fist of the North Star
Lucario dominates the characters that need to build up damage to kill because he gets stronger as his % gets higher. No amount of grabbing is going to stop that. >_>
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Robtcee13
I am a fish.
You obviously don't know how to avoid things when using a faster, yet weaker, character.
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The Ultramind12
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Fist of the North Star
Lucario's already pretty fast. You're not just going to be able to dodge him with a slightly faster character. He's got a LOT of priority, so once he gets to the higher percentages, along comes the pain.
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Robtcee13
I am a fish.
Need I pull the "You haven't played Brawl" card out here? I've got a friend here who's imported the game, and trust me, Lucario is NOT god. There are ways to counter everything.
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The Ultramind12
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Fist of the North Star
Oh no, I haven't played.

OH WAIT. I've watched pretty much EVERY SINGLE BRAWL VIDEO ON THE INTERNET! AND READ COMMENTS FROM PEOPLE WHO HAVE PLAYED!

I'm pretty fucking sure I know more about this than you. Sure, Lucario isn't GOD, but characters that rely on building up damage to kill (Metaknight, Sonic) will have a much harder time against him than those who kill at low percentages (Bowser, Dedede).

THAT IS FACT. Christ, do you need to pull at straws to make an argument about EVERYTHING?

So yes. Pretty much all of the characters in Brawl have a counter in some form or another. There are just some annoying ones with broken recoveries (Anyone with more than one midair jump and ROB, who has a jet booster that lasts about five seconds, which is A LONG ASS TIME as far as recoveries go. And he doesn't need to use those five seconds all at once, he can boost for a moment, fire an attack, and then boost some more).

Also, no, smart, skilled players would NOT transcend tier lists. Gimpy is pretty much GOD of Bowser in Melee, yet against a player of similar skill who used, say, Fox, he'd get his ass handed to him. For instance: Ken. Ken mains Fox and would own the living shit out of him. Every. Single. Time. Ask ANY expert. Even Gimpy himself.

This probably no longer true in Brawl (What with Bowsercide SideB and super armor, as well as removal or wavedashing and hence almost all tactics relating to the "shine") there ARE some characters that will, inherently, be better than certain other characters. This is a fact of fighting games, and unless everybody played exactly the same, there's no stopping it. However, it takes YEARS for tier lists to come to light, so we shouldn't have to worry about that anytime soon.

Besides that, Brawl looks to be incredibly well-balanced, at least compared to Melee. The heavy characters are big and tough and kill quickly, the light characters are fast and attack quickly to rack up damage (Instead of Melee Fox's capability to kill at around 60% with his stupidly overpowered uair), EVERYBODY seems to have much better recovery than before (In Melee, if you fell off the bottom of the screen, you were NOT going to recover. Some characters can return to the stage from that spot using ONLY their UpB in Brawl), though there are some who seem to have ridiculous recoveries (Fliers) and overall it's looking to be much better than Melee was.
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Robtcee13
I am a fish.
So, are people are going to believe the person who watched every Brawl video, or the person who watched every Brawl video and has PLAYED Brawl?

I'm not saying tiers are pointless in Melee. They aren't, because the higher tiered characters tend to be affected better when they abuse glitches. A highly skilled player using the worst tiered character could beat a less skilled player using Fox or Lucario.

And recoveries for EVERYONE are broken now. You pretty much have to just make someone fly straight off the edge, as they aren't going to fall short often. Olimar will, if he has no Pikmin. Ice Climbers will, if Nana is dead, but you get the picture. People who CAN recover WILL recover. It's the nature of Brawl's new gameplay. Sure, Pit can fly, but does that stop momentum from a very strong hit? No.
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The Ultramind12
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Fist of the North Star
But Pit can recover from spots that would kill anyone else, and I mean ANYONE. Like, off the screen both to the bottom and the side. NOBODY else would recover from that. And need I remind you that Metaknight and glide all the way around Hyrule Temple without landing, which is REALLY broken? And that most flying characters can just use their natural jumps to go under and around a stage? Kinda broken, because that gives them a HUGE advantage when their opponent revives after dieing. They need to man up and take the inevitable smash attack that the other person will use during their invicibility frames. Like I always do.

Also, I'm DAMN tired of seeing all the matches on Final Destination and Battlefield with items off. USE THE ITEMS, AND PLAY ON DIFFERENT LEVELS. NOBODY CARES ABOUT YOUR STUPID ONE ON ONE, ITEMLESS FIGHTS. THEY'RE BORING AS FUCK. Pros may find some fun from playing on flat stages without items, but unlike casual games they're no fun to watch.
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Robtcee13
I am a fish.
I do one-on-one itemless fights quite often, when I'm tired of items. Trust me, I can only take a Bob-omb to the face so many times...
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The Ultramind12
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Fist of the North Star
Speaking of bob-ombs, either they've been nerfed, or Ike has a REALLY long reach. I've seen him slash one without taking damage. And no, it wasn't because of super armor frames, he used his forward smash.
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Robtcee13
I am a fish.
The Ultramind12,Feb 10 2008
10:03 PM
Speaking of bob-ombs, either they've been nerfed, or Ike has a REALLY long reach. I've seen him slash one without taking damage. And no, it wasn't because of super armor frames, he used his forward smash.

Super armor only prevents knockback, not damage.

And yeah, few characters can hit those without getting hurt. Not many, but there are some. I haven't done it, personally. >_>
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The Ultraardvark12
Squire
Quote:
 
MK attacks WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY too fast and seems to have HUGE priority. It is my opinion that he's the most broken character in the game.


=/ So the character I was planning to use as my main's broken? Good to know. ~_^
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The Ultramind12
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Fist of the North Star
It's disappointing, really. Gimpy went from maining one of the hardest characters to effectively use to maining the most broken character.
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Robtcee13
I am a fish.
Doesn't mean Meta Knight is totally broken. As you said, he can't KO easily at low percents, so Lucario can kick his ass.

That, and his Final Smash is easily dodged by a halfway decent player.

Oh, and did you know that FS's scale with your size? Mario's FS is so damn small...
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Drifting Swordsman
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Screw the rules, I have sporks!
Root Admin
We interrupt this Casual Elitist bitchfest to bring you the best match ever.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=2Ezpgf0fE8U
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The Ultramind12
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Fist of the North Star
Drifting Swordsman,Feb 10 2008
10:57 PM
We interrupt this Casual Elitist bitchfest to bring you the best match ever.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=2Ezpgf0fE8U

Already posted it.

I am NOT a casual elitist. People are entitled to Smash however they like.

Pro matches are just boring.
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The Ultramind12
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Fist of the North Star
Also, I can't see how anyone can say MK's FS is easy to dodge. It has a good chunk of range and is easily combo'd into.

Not that it matters. FS's aren't allowed in tournament play.
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Robtcee13
I am a fish.
Tournaments bore me.

They're usually all about "NO ITEM FINAL DESTINATION NOW" instead of "HAI LET'S TURN OFF JUST BOBOMBS SO WE DON'T DIE". I mean, I haven't seen a pro match outside of Final Destination.


Also, some event matches are pissing me off. The rainbow of Kirbies, particularly. Marth for some reason can't stand fighting 25 unhandicapped enemies. Advice? >_>
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Maltese
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Fire 1, fire 2, fire 1, fire 2....
Standard B.

Even barely charged, it sends them flying.

P.S. TUM is so cute when he gets all offended and rant-y
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Robtcee13
I am a fish.
Huh... That's the one move I never use. >_>

Sure you aren't talking about Roy? Marth is just someone I can fight with without touching the B button. Mostly because his specials aren't all that great, but that's not the point. He's got counter. >_>

Okay... What about Link + Zelda vs. Ganondorf? His first life goes down easy, but then he kills Zelda right when he respawns. >_>
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Maltese
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Fire 1, fire 2, fire 1, fire 2....
Never did beat that one.

Try grabs.

As for Marth, lots of weak clones of a hyper-light character = B move.
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Robtcee13
I am a fish.
I beat it with Pokeballs.

Now I'm pissed because:

A: My motherfucking computer has had to restart about a million times and is barely running now. Piece of shit.
B: Two words- Seven Years. Cheap ass motherfucker with a longer sword. And no fucking weaknesses. I swear, his fucking handicap is 9 and mine is 1. That's how much it takes to kill him. Can't move him until he's at 200%. Cheap motherfucker. >_>
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Robtcee13
I am a fish.
Final Destination Match

Attempt 1: Holy shit, they cooperate. Gotta love not getting one below 200 HP. >_>
Attempt 2: I killed Master Hand, then mispredicted Crazy Hand's attack. It killed me. And froze me.
Attempt 3: Jesus, I got hit before the match started. *Restart*
Attempt 4: My shield broke, then I got raped by 2 hands at the same time. ...Which was painful. Died at 254%. >_>
Attempt 5: They put me to sleep, then sent me off the edge. While still sleeping. You'd think you'd wake up if you were falling.
Attempt 6: Got Master to 16 HP. He drilled. I attempted to up-b and kill him with style. I missed. Then I got raped by Crazy.
Attempt 7 and 8: Grabbed by Crazy at the start. Restarted.

You get the idea. This battle is FUCKING HARD with 1 life.
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The Ultraardvark12
Squire
Robtcee13,Feb 11 2008
10:10 AM
Final Destination Match

Attempt 1: Holy shit, they cooperate. Gotta love not getting one below 200 HP. >_>
Attempt 2: I killed Master Hand, then mispredicted Crazy Hand's attack. It killed me. And froze me.
Attempt 3: Jesus, I got hit before the match started. *Restart*
Attempt 4: My shield broke, then I got raped by 2 hands at the same time. ...Which was painful. Died at 254%. >_>
Attempt 5: They put me to sleep, then sent me off the edge. While still sleeping. You'd think you'd wake up if you were falling.
Attempt 6: Got Master to 16 HP. He drilled. I attempted to up-b and kill him with style. I missed. Then I got raped by Crazy.
Attempt 7 and 8: Grabbed by Crazy at the start. Restarted.

You get the idea. This battle is FUCKING HARD with 1 life.

And yet I beat it with Ice Climbers. >_>
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Robtcee13
I am a fish.
Hey, Marth isn't very damaging. He's a more technical character who c--...

...Well, now, I suppose you can't Counter the hands' attacks. Time to do it with Ganondorf. >_>

Edit: Kicked their asses in 1:13. And they're hands. >_>
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Robtcee13
I am a fish.
Anyone ever notice that All Star Match Deluxe is made entirely of clones?

Falco (Fox)
Dr. Mario (Mario)
Ganondorf (C. Falcon)
Young Link (Link)
Roy (Marth)
Pichu (Pikachu)
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The Ultraardvark12
Squire
Yes.


I mean, it's really cOLD outside.
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Robtcee13
I am a fish.
Today isn't the day to annoy me, M4S. I put a controller through the wall. Literally. There is now a hole in my wall.
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The Ultramind12
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Fist of the North Star
I used Yoshi for the hands. dair FTW.
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Robtcee13
I am a fish.
usmash of Ganondorf kicks their asses too.

Also, anyone hear that Brawl could quite possibly be getting DLC?
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The Ultramind12
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Fist of the North Star
EDIT: Not this...
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Robtcee13
I am a fish.
Not what?
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The Ultramind12
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Fist of the North Star
It was a link to a forum that was merely talking about the article.
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Robtcee13
I am a fish.
Seen it.

It'd be cool if it's real. >_>
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The Ultraardvark12
Squire
Robtcee13,Feb 11 2008
11:47 AM
Today isn't the day to annoy me, M4S. I put a controller through the wall. Literally. There is now a hole in my wall.

You asked if anyone noticed, I said I had noticed...
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Robtcee13
I am a fish.
You also used the little overused cold thing on me. Which annoys me, rather than amuses me.
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The Ultraardvark12
Squire
Truth be told, you're easily annoyed.
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Robtcee13
I am a fish.
Yeah, I've been stressed lately.

And getting progressively sicker. I better get better before Friday. >_>
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Robtcee13
I am a fish.
If characters were tiered on speed...

Then Sonic would be on a higher tier than F Zero racers! >_>
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