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Don't mind me, just archiving sumthing...
Topic Started: Feb 25 2007, 09:50 PM (146 Views)
The Ultramind12
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Fist of the North Star
By PeaceXkeeP

The following is all based upon textual or literal fact from the sources of which they hold relevance. Please do not question these facts unless you can bring in counter-evidence or your post will be moot and ignored. Like ACCEL and others, I insist upon relevance and logic. Please read this entire post before you try to make a counter-arguement. Thank you.
On a saturday afternoon, me and my buddy, out of sheer boredom and lack of liquor, decided to go through his entire Sonic Archie Comics collection. He has roughly every issue with the possible exception of the #000 series, but since Super Sonic didn't arrive in the comics until #4, it really doesn't matter. We made sure to write down every noticable thing about the Chaos Force, Super Sonic's ability, and how things work in his world. For the most part, we tried to reference our sources and I would ask that if you feel the need to make a counter-arguement that you do the same. If we don't start referencing our material, this will just get hectic as we don't know whats real and whats assumption. I'm going to have to ask all the Superman fans to reference the facts they have already claimed thus far to ensure there is no false information, and I'll ask the same thing of the Sonic fans for Sonic X, as I don't know much about that series.


SECTION I: Things to consider.
I'm going to have to ask you all to read through this part first as it deals with major misconception inherent thus far in the discussion.
Being Decieved by Aesthetics- Don't judge a book by its cover guys. One thing I feel alot of Superman fans are basing their arguements on is that the events surrounding Super Sonic are not as epic as those here have claimed because the visual aesthetics of the event do not feel as epic as the feat that is occuring. The best example of this is the Super Sonic and Hyper Knuckles collision. Superman fans have claimed that the dimension that the two were fighting in was not a dimension at all because it looks "dinky" or "small". There is absolutely no evidence or grounds for saying such a thing. The dialogue, text or narration of events in a tale determine what officially has happened, not your own interpretation based on an underwhelming drawing or digital cutscene. You have to keep in mind that the Sonic narratives do not tend to put much effort into the glitz and glamor of their events, so your eyes can fool you. If you want to challenge the genuity of a character's feats then your going to have to provide an actual quote from the text or dialogue to support your case rather then simply saying "this is this way because I think it looks like it!" For example, ROCKS, if you had quoted Princess Sally saying "This dimension is tiny and fragile" (she says no such thing) or something along those lines then you would have a case. The fact is, the narrative says the place Super Sonic and Hyper Knuckles are fighting in is a full dimension, a plane of existence, and that the act of them charging each other bends the limits of reality and destroys the dimension. That is the way it is, end of story. This applies to every single Sonic AND Superman based event, if Superman is said to be capable of dragging a galaxy, no matter how unreasonable or unrealistic it is, that is the way it is. Go by the text or dialogue, opinions based purely on aesthetics are void.


Painful Assumptions- One thing you guys keep forgeting is that what does and does not damage a character requires just as much proof and reference as what abilities they have. A while back, a Sonic fan claimed that Sonic could use the Green Chaos Emerald to defeat Superman because Green= Kryptonite. He was immediately rebuked for it, and the Superman fans were right to do so. That claim makes no sense, it isn't based on any textual evidence and is just pure assumption. Okay so now lets say Superman is weak against the color gold, so Super Sonic would instantly defeat him. Again, assumption, I have said something about Superman that is based on any sort of narrative evidence. I have made a claim about what can and what cant damage Superman, I've said that he can be hurt by Super Sonic's Gold cause it works like Gold Kryptonite and robs him off his powers. I'm wrong, it doesn't make sense, there have never been any instances of Superman being weak to simply the COLOR gold. So now, lets say I, as a Superman fan, claim that Superman can hurt Super Sonic by punching him with a purely kinetic blow. I have just done the exact same thing, I have claimed that Super Sonic can be damage by a force when I have no evidence for saying such a thing. The fact is Super Sonic, in both the game, comic and anime has never been shown to be damaged by anything purely kinetic. Every attack which has caused "damage" to SS has been derived from Chaos Energy. No characters have been shown to be able to damage a Super Form other then those using Chaos Energy, or a machine using a Chaos Emerald as its power source. The last boss in Sonic Rush, Solaris, Metal Overlord etc etc etc, all are powered by Chaos Energy.(and seriously before somebody jumps up claiming 'he can die by falling into a bottomless pit/crushed/drowning!'.......dude....its a decade-old game, there is programing, there are things programmers couldnt do back in the day, what Super Sonic does in the non-Super Sonic-exclusive stages is totally not canon to his actual potential. Are you seriously going to make the arguement that he can easily survive in space but can't hold his breath underwater.....? Get real....). Therefore, saying he can be injured by Superman's non-Chaos Energy-powered attacks in JUST AS MUCH AN ASSUMPTION as saying Superman is weak against the Green Chaos Emerald. You are assuming Super Sonic can be hurt by a purely-kinetic punch simply because you associate Superman's punch with great power. That's no different from associating green with Kryptonite, all of you guys are basing your claims on assumptions which are based on what you associate certain things with. Green= Kryptonite, Punch=Owies. Superman has been OFFICIALLY SHOWN to be damaged by a multitude of powers and forces. Kinetic, magic, divine etc etc etc. Since these are things which have been noted to officially cause Superman harm, Super Sonic can use them to damage the Man of Steel. Super Sonic, on the other hand, as a result of poor writing, has only been shown to be damaged by one thing; other Chaos Energy-users. This gives him a "damage condition", only certain things can cause him harm, namely Chaos Energy. Superman has a number of "damage conditions", you need to hit him with GREAT superstrength, magic, divine power or use Kryptonite to actually get pass his defenses. You know what I mean. But Superman has several "damage conditions", so a number of things can cause him harm. Super Sonic's abilities have been shown to meet Superman's "damage conditions", so he can harm him (he has been shown to use superstrength, physics bending forces, divine power etc). But the idea that Superman's punch, no matter how great, can hurt Super Sonic, is just silly because we have never seen Super Sonic being injured by a purely kinetic non-Chaos Energy derived attack. Super Sonic's crappy writing staff is also his greatest strength, nobody bothered to explain what can and can't hurt him, so we can only go by what we have seen. Super Sonic can be damaged by Chaos Energy-derived attacks alone, everything else is simply assumption on your part. The same thing could be argued in that Superman has never been shown to be damaged by Chaos Energy. That would hold some truth, but the fact of the matter is that Superman's weakness works when applied with a force that bends physics. Since Chaos Energy easily meets such a standard, it is safe to say it can hurt Superman.


-Combat speed is different from Speed itself. Let’s say I can run at 9 or 10 mph in a full sprint. That’s all well and fine but if somebody drags me into a fight it’s not like im going to be moving 10 mph during the fight. Superman/Super Sonic may be capable of moving unfathomable speeds in a linear fashion, but this isn’t a race, it’s a fight. In terms of speed, what counts is things like vanishing attacks and dodging. Super Sonic has been shown to have very intense combat speed in both the comic and in Sonic X, he is easily capable of performing vanishing attacks. He can move too fast to be seen to perform a practically invisible attack. I have not seen Superman do any such thing, though I’m sure he has. The thing is, I keep hearing about how fast Superman is, yet I never see him doing something as basic as using this incredible speed to move behind his enemy instantly to catch them off guard (as is par the course in DBZ), or attack invisibly. Superman’s movements, in my experience, are always accompanied by a very visible red and blue blur. Furthermore, he has, over the years, been hit by slow moving things like bullets or lasers which have done him damage. Such things are easily dodged by people like Goku or Super Sonic, and should, in theory, be easily evadable by Superman. And yes, I know he is bulletproof, but I’m talking about things like energy blasts, magic and special bullets. I just read an issue where Superman is hit by a Kryptonite Bullet fired from a normal revolver and I’m thinking "Sure it’s Kryptonite but considering the distance and how comparably slow it is to Superman’s theoretical speed that thing should be like a giant green-glowing handicap turtle with a sign that says ‘GET THE HELL OUT OF THE WAY’ plastered on its shell". I am fairly sure Superman has a good amount of combat speed, but I will need some references in order to prevent SS from taking an incredible edge. Oh, and before anyone questions it, the reason DBZ folks tend to meet those huge energy attacks head on is to prevent the destruction of the planet they are fighting on + the fact that the attacks home in on their targets so dodging tends to be pointless.


-While I’m at it, in this very same issue a future version of Superman ports back in time to try to kill both Superman and Batman. The dude bashes Batman point blanc but Bruce doesn’t even suffer a shattered ribcage. Considering Superman’s strength and his intention to murder Batman, why the hell wasn’t Batman turned into hamburger by Superman’s blow? I'm sure they explain it away with 8 paragraphs using the word 'particles' 87 times (referrreeencce lol).


SECTION II
Performance Check
Archie Comics Super Sonic:
Fighting Style: Variable. He shifts between the following: In a pattern that makes him look like a shooting golden blur, rockets at incredible speeds while relying on his invulnerability and Chaos Energy to break through his targets. Shifts between this and straightforward punching at high speeds, relying on quantity over quality. Can also perform high powered Chaos Blasts.
Durability: Capable of surviving a dimension erupting around him (Super Sonic VS Hyper Knuckles Special) and can easily shrug off a multitude of nuclear missles going off around him (Mecha Madness Special). Survived a direct blast from a time-distorting beam (Sonic #71). Survived the Ultimate Annihilator from ground zero (#50). Did not even notice an armada barrage going off around him. Sonic’s Super form is said to be capable of protecting him from anything (Sonic #56).
Strength: Though not his primary forte, has an impressive fortitude of strength. Capable of punching Master Mogul (a dimension-destroying enemy) a great distance with a single blow, as well as being able to shatter his armor. Has also shown a impressive amount of strength in his normal form (rending blast sheilds and safe vaults), which is increased one-thousand fold in his Super Form.
Willpower- In normal form, resisted and overcame the mind-control of a dimension controlling god.
Dexterity: Godlike. Capable of disassembling (piece by piece) an entire G.U.N. Unit’s weaponry without even removing the weapons from the soldier’s hands in less then an instant, in basic form. Again, times one-thousand for the S-form bonus check.
Speed: Unfathonable. Super Sonic and Hyper Knuckles destroyed the dimension they were fighting in simply by charging at each other at full speed (Super Sonic VS Hyper Knuckles). His speed easily exceeds the speed of light, and is so powerful that it can manipulate time (Sonic #71). Can also vibrate his molecules to slip through solid objects in his normal form (Sonic #119). In terms of combat, can use his speed in normal form to perform "vanishing attacks" were he moves too fast to be seen and can destroy an enemy in an instant (Sonic #102). Again, one-thousand fold increase applies.
Senses: Can, apparently, sense danger to a certain extent, even from miles away. (Sonic #102).
Special Techniques or Abilities:
Chaos Control- You should know.........
Barrier-Can create minor barriers or energy waves capable of either deflecting minor attacks or allowing him to ram into opponents with intense force (#13, #138)
Chaos Energy Blasts-Can easily fire Chaos Energy Beams capable of destroying large celestial bodies. The maximum potential of this attack is unknown, as the only instance in which the attack was used was in a casual manner (Super Sonic is grinning, takes little to no prep work for the attack and does not appear noticeably tapped after performing the ability).
Billionth Ring Field- As of Sonic #35 has been granted a personal, internal mystical aura capable of maintaing and reshaping Sonic’s spiritual and physical essence. This allows him to be revived and restored from form altering and fatal injury (Mecha Madness) and can occasionally protect him with a powerful aura barrier (#35). It can also be used to draw incredible knowledge (Sonic Quest). The protective limits of this aura seem limitless as it has saved Sonic when he was pulled into the heart of the Ultimate Annihilator, which should have erased him from all planes of existence (Sonic #50, SSS #6). Not to mention the fact that the eruption engulfed a good 1/5th of the planet and messed up the dimensional and universal barriers.
Super Sonic Fade (I gave it a name, sue me -_- )- a "Super Sonic Power" that allows Sonic to jump through his enemies like a ghost. The science behind this ability is, unfortunately for our purposes, never explained. (Sonic #4)
Super Sonic Shield- Can create a golden (sometimes green….wtf?) mystical energy shield which completely defends him on all sides. While the shield does defend him from actual physical injury, he can still be knocked about by a powerful kinetic attack, though the worst that he can suffer in this case is momentary dizziness (but the shield does not break). It seems impossible to actually physically wound Super Sonic when he using this ability as the shield is instantly summoned, does not appear to drain energy, and seems impenetrable. (Sonic #84)
One-Thousand Fold Bonus- All abilities Sonic possesses in his normal form are increased a thousand fold from ascending to Super Sonic (Super Sonic VS Hyper Knuckles).
Jeez this guy is insane! Joe and Vegeta weren’t making this up, SS is ri-goddamn-diculous!
Let's summarize:
Comic Super Sonic:
-Super Strength
-Epic Level Speed
-Invulnerable (has never actually been physically injured, merely stunned at best)
-Protected by TWO mystic shields PLUS his ability to create minor shields.
-Can just BLATANTLY IGNORE solidity
-Celestial Body-destroying Mystical energy blasts
-Pretty much un-killable, what with the billionth ring aura, the super form protection and the Super Sheild
-Deity-denying willpower
-Godlike dexterity
-Can sense danger
-Chaos Control
-Immune to godlike mind control and physical alteration
-Can exert enough power to destroy a dimension, THAT’S NUTS!
Geez, no wonder he can tangle with dimensional-destroying villains and gods.


SECTION III
Things to keep in mind about Super Sonic (both for the Superman fans and the Sonic fans alike, you are all commiting assumptions lol):
-The reasons for using the Super Sonic from the Sonic comics have been given already and he has already been accepted for this debate. You guys are just going over the same old speedbumps and it is getting tiresome. Enough.
-Super Sonic HAS been proven to move at light-speed in the comic continuity. The Sonic X and game's version...........meh..that is debatable. You need to take into account such things as Sonic porting all over the place instantly in Sonic X and the Light Speed Dash (again, see Being Decieved by Aesthetics. It may not LOOK like Light Speed, but hey, if the game says it's light speed, then it's light speed). Im not going to really make a claim about the Sonic X SS or the Game SS because the evidence in both cases is, at best, debatable, but the Sonic Comic SS has been shown to move faster than light in both Issue # 71 and in fanmail asking the writers what Sonic's maximum speed was.
-Super Sonic is a temporal thing, Sonic cannot stay in Super Form forever. But the duration of Super Sonic time varies from continuity to continuity. Using the ring theory is flawed as the rings are a gameplay device more then an actual story element (plus incorporating them into this would require granting Super Sonic invulnerability as you can't incorporate one gameplay element without the other. Before you say SS isn't invincible, see the Painful Assumptions section), but ROCKS is right in saying that there is no proof to suggest Super Sonic can exist forever, in all continuities his "Super time" is limited. However, Super Sonic generally seems to last until the "Super Foe" he is fighting is vanquished, so its safe to say that he would have a good ammount of time to battle Superman.
-In the comics, Super Sonic's power comes from the Chaos Force, a power greater then magic. This was proven in the Darkest Storm saga of comics when Ixis Nagus confronted Mammoth Mogul. I believe DC has a similar relation between magic and The Source but I do not know the details. However, in the Sonic comics, it works like this. The Chaos Force is what makes up all existence, it's basically the Sonic Comic version of DC's The Source. Magic is a nearly omnipotent force which is capable of bending physics, but it is not the actual source of existence in and of itself. Those who use magic can bend the laws of physics, but those who use the Chaos Force are working with the force that decides the laws of physics exist in the first place. It's sort of like being able to somewhat alter the world God makes (Magic) versus working together with God (Chaos Force). It is important to understand this as it is an essential aspect of understanding how Super Sonic works. The word's "magical" and "magic" may be used in conjucture with the Chaos Talismans (Chaos Emeralds, Guiding Gems, Ring etc etc), but this is the result of the fact that few on Mobius fully comprehend the true extent of the forces that make up their world, very few fully comprehend the Chaos Force, but the difference between these two forces is not very difficult to grasp. With this in mind, Super Sonic becomes a pretty broken character because his source of power is an unstable wild card. When you are using the force that makes up the universe, you don't so much have a power as much as a massive cheat code because if you can use the universe itself then you can bend its rules. It's like playing a boardgame and simply changing the rules whenever you want. This is not simply assumption, the Sonic comics often fall back on this wild card of "do anything"-power to compensate for quick and choppy storylines. Chaos Knuckles, Titan Tails, the many reworkings of parrallel universes and individuals and the entire incident with A.D.A.M. are great examples of this. There is no way to claim that the Chaos Force is limited in anyway without dragging yourself into an exestentialist debate.

-The Source of All is not Sonic's version of The Source. The Source of All is simply essentially the purest most divine physical substance in existence. It quite clearly ISN'T the Source of Sonic's universe as it was destroyed permanently in the Darkest Storm saga. Think of it more like God-Gel lol. The Chaos Force is the Sonic comic version of the Source and there is no grounds for claiming one is superior to the other. Both are the infallable, transcendent, essences of their universes.
-Consider just how broken the power of a Chaos Emerald is. In the comics half of an Emerald created an entire dimension on it's own (Triple Trouble Special), and in the games they work like a blank check of power and space/time manipulation. They are a limitless source of power, and, in all narratives, their powers have been shown to trancend the dimensional barriers. Knuckles managed to tap into the Chaos Force while trapped in the Image Comics dimension, and the resulting erruption completely undid all the events of both the Image and Sonic comic universes. When Feist obtained all seven Chaos Emeralds, he gained godlike control of his dimension and bent it to his whim. He had so much power he didn't even mind giving Sonic one of the Emeralds. Those who really tap into the emeralds power have played silly-putty with time and space and the dimensional barriers (Ixis Nagus, Mammoth Mogul, the Xorda, Titan Tails, Chaos Knuckles, Solaris etc). Super Sonic............is powered by SEVEN of these emeralds. Just think about how absurd that is.
-The Sonic comic Sonic has yet to fulfill his true potential, as he is the only one of the choosen three to not ascend to his divine form as of yet. Knuckles and Tails both have attained such might, and their ultimate forms, Titan Tails and Chaos Knuckles, would easily wipe the floor with an ARMY of Super Sonic's and Supermen. Titan Tails could swat dimensions like flies, the only power higher would be that of God himself. Chaos Knuckles could warp reality to his whim, and mess around with the space, time and dimensional barriers before he finally ascended to a divine union with the Chaos Force. The only reason both characters didn't become gods is by their own will. Since Sonic has been said to also be destined to achieve a divine form, we have yet to see just how far he can go, but we do know he will be practically a god.

SECTION IV:
These are responses to users previous points, I suggest you read them though as there are some good points made here:
ACCEL:
"captain marvel & Billy Batson are to separate beings. when billy yells SHAZAM, he is hit by lightning & turns into a completely different person called captain marvel. captain marvel is a mystical being. they are to separate people. like goku & vegeta fuze into gogeta (or was it vegeto,... which ever one requires the dance, not the ear rings) they turn into one completely different person, just like captain marvel.

supersonic is still sonic, just beefed up using 7 emeralds. he's not a pure mystical being, take away the emeralds & he's just sonic again"
-I'm a bit confused by your analysis of Captain Marvel. You say that Billy Batson TURNS into a completely different person, but then claim they are two seperate people. If they truly are different individuals then it is not transformation so much as replacement. Something is transformed when it changes its traits. Billy Batson is transformed if, when hit by the lightning, his physical and mental ability are augmented by the magic. If Billy Batson is transformed into Captain Marvel then deep down, under all the magical power, he is still just Billy Batson. If Captain Marvel is a being of pure magic, then Billy Batson is not transformed into him, Captain Marvel simply replaces Billy Batson because Billy Batson is not a mystical being. In other words, Billy Batson would simply be ported into "hammerspace" while Captain Marvel exists. Since Captain Marvel retains Billy Batson's consciousness and persona, claiming they are two seperate beings does not make sense unless you can support this with further evidence. Such evidence would have to prove that Captain Marvel is a sentient being on his own, one who can exist independently of Billy Batson. But from what research I have done, Billy Batson is simply bestowed with a powerful magic that comes from several olympian gods. Take away his magic and he is just Billy Batson again (isn't this exactly what happens when he yells SHAZAM in Captain Marvel form?). But regardless of Captain Marvel's background, the fact still stands that Super Sonic isn't technically using magic. Keep in mind his superstrength and all his other abilities come from the source of his universe, not just magic. His punch is still technically a punch which bypasses Superman's defenses as his power source bends physics (in a manner higher then that of magic), but he still retains his superstrength after bypassing said defenses because his power is not limited to magic. Keep in mind that because the Chaos Force is an unstable wild card of a narrative concept, Super Sonic's superstrength could be derived from a number of methods other then what you or I would denote to be a magic aura. His strength is not necessarily the result of the aura of energy which surrounds him. For example if his muscles were augemented due to the Chaos Force his punch would not return to Normal-Sonic status after bypassing Superman's defense because while the physics-bending aura around him may (or may not) be negated due to Superman's defensive "sheilds", the punch he is struck with is still one coming from a being with godlike strength as the strength is muscular, not magical. And no, this would not make Sonic beef-out because, as the animal kingdom has proven time and time again, just because a limb is skinny and limber doesn't mean it isn't strong.
Furthermore, the idea that Super Sonic is simply a "beefed up" version of Sonic is, im sorry, pure speculation. If you can claim that Billy Batson and Captain Marvel are seperate beings I can easily make a similar arguement for Super Sonic and Sonic. Both the Billy Batson-Captain Marvel relationship and the Sonic-Super Sonic relationships share the following traits:
1. The retaining of a common consciousness
2. The augementation of mental and physical ability
3. Certain conditions neccesary for the transformation
4. The ability to revert to the basic form
5. Powered by a magic-esque source
In fact, there is some evidence to suggest Sonic and Super Sonic are seperate beings as Super Sonic has been seperated from Sonic. The seperated Super Sonic maintained his own consciousness, powers and persona, one that was Chaotic Neutral. However, in the same issue it was proven that he cannot exist outside of Sonic himself. It could be argued that Sonic and this being share a similar relation as Billy Batson and Captain Marvel, with the two consciousnesses being meshed together in order to push Super Sonic from Chaotic Neutral to Lawful Good or Chaotic Good.
Furthermore, one aspect I feel we are all ignoring in this debate is just how strong regular Sonic is by himself. We are all assuming Super Sonic would be punching Superman but has anyone ever brought up the Spinball, Figure 8 or many of the other techniques Sonic has displayed in his past adventures? In both the comics and the games these abilities are capable of easily punching through industrial strength blast-shields. Sonic, in his rage pursuing the original Robotnik, easily punched through a blast sheild that looked to be about as dense and powerful as a safe vault. I'm not saying they are capable of rivaling Superman's planet-moving strength but my point is simply that Sonic can make a hell of a kinetic impact. Also, remeber all these abilities are boosted one-thousand fold from going Super Sonic. Superman is one dense mo-fo, but it seems anyone with basic superstrength in the DC universe can give him some trouble.
Oh and btw, Gogeta is not a completely seperate individual, saying this implies that he has no relation to Goku or Vegeta. Just like Vegetto (Vegerot), Gogeta is the combination of Goku and Vegeta in terms of physicality, chi-manipulation and persona. The dual-voice, incredible ability and strength represent this. Furthermore, he is cocky and arrogant as he has Goku's playfulness combined with Vegeta's cockyness and pride. He is not a seperate being because he cannot exist without the merging of Goku and Vegeta.

"sonics magic is manipulating the chaos power. chaos power is the ultimate force in sonics realm, it doesn't bend physics because the chaos force makes up the laws of physics. there is still a chance that chaos energy can hurt superman, but it doesn't pass his shield like magic would"
-No offense ACCEL but this sentence doesn't make sense: "chaos power is the ultimate force in sonics realm, it doesn't bend physics because the chaos force makes up the laws of physics." That is the equivalent of saying that God cannot bend the universe when he wants. The person (force) who makes the rules can bend the rules. A force that is essentially all existence is a practically incomprehensible concept which can turn logic and rules on their head. If someone had total control of the Chaos Force, Source or whatever makes up our world, they could make 2+2= Duckburgers (mmmm). That's what it means to be omnipotent, you have no limitations or rules holding you in check. The Chaos Force, Source, God etc do not have to apply to any sort of rules or logic because that implies that there is a force that is more powerful then they are. Since the Chaos Force and The Source are looked at as the ultimate culminating omnipotent forces in their universe, they are not restricted in any way. Therefore, the idea that the Chaos Force aura that surrounds Super Sonic's fist or a Chaos Blast cannot bend physics in the same method that Captain Marvel's magical aura can is an extremely weak arguement as your essentially claiming that a force that can do anything can't do something. Furthermore, again no offense, but your interpretation of how Super Sonic works in relation to the Chaos Force is pure assumption. In the the comics Super Sonic has been explained as Sonic using the Chaos Energy equivalent of 50 Power Rings and 7 Chaos Emeralds (though this can be done in other methods. Super Sonic has appeared several times in the comics without the aid of actual Chaos Emeralds or Power Rings) and ascending into a form which is bounded to the Chaos Force, giving the user practically limitless ability (this is definition of the Super Form in general: Super Sonic, Super Shadow, Super Knuckles). This basic Super form puts one in competition with gods and dimension destroying threats (Mammoth Mogul, Ixis Nagus, the Xorda, A.D.A.M.), and the unrestricted exertion of a Super Forms unmeasurable power can obliterate a dimension (Super Sonic VS Hyper Knuckles). There are several forms above the Super Form, but most are rarely seen. My point is that Super Sonic has little to nothing to do with actual magic (the only Super Forms I was able to find which perform actual magic rather then space/time/reality manipulation are Turbo Tails, Hyper Tails and Ultra Sonic.)


-ACCEL, please provide a scan or book number to show when Superman has moved through time instantly. The reason I have serious doubts about this ability of his is because, aside from saving his loved ones from doom (though you explained this very well), he could use the ability in a Prince of Persia-esque manner to never be harmed. For example Superman would simply see his opponent's attack coming, jump back in time to before his enemy performed the attack and stop him. In other words, he would always know who and what he is up against because if he was fighting someone difficult he would simply jump back in time to right when his enemy appeared and know their combat methods. It's sort of like how when you play a boss in a video game and die, the next time you play that boss you know what to expect. Here is a good example:
Say I'm fighting a normal looking guy and suddenly he pulls a laser out of his stomach and starts firing at me, revealing he is a robot. I have a hard time dodging all the laser shots, but assuming I have Superman's time-jumping power I can simply jump back in time to right when the guy showed up and punch him in the stomach, crushing the laser, because now I know he is a robot and not a normal human. The laser can no longer surprise me, nor does the fact that my opponent is actually a robot. Superman could never be surprised. While it is possible Superman has performed something like this, your going to have to provide some references or scans because giving him this power would be an extremely reckless action on the part of the DC writers as it would eliminate all suspense. Superman could simply jump back in time and warn everyone about Imperiex or warn himself about Doomsday. Even if Superman has no control over death, he could still interfere in the events of his own life to manipulate them to his liking, giving him a rather broken power. And if only certain people have to go when they have to go Superman, being the good guy that he is, would always go back in time to TRY to save them, just to check, right? Super Sonic has time-jumping abilities true, but when he arrives it is often in response to a threat he must deal with then and there, a threat which can also manipulate time or destroy dimensions (Solaris, Mammoth Mogul etc). That and it seems to take awile to perform.
-Good job explaining Supes powers ACCEL, but I have another question. If all Kryptonians needed were a yellow sun to become the demi-god power that is Superman, why didn't their entire civilization move off the planet? I'm not accusing your point, I'm honestly just curious and sure there is an explanation.


-ACCEL, about your DBZ impressions, I'm sorry and again no offense but they are simply wrong lol. Why didn't Goku move the planet when he was fighting Broly? Well, for one, he didn't know because the only one who knew about the comet's collision was Paragus and later Vegeta (keep in mind Paragus wanted to use the comet to kill ALL of them). But what is the main reason Goku didn't move the planet while fighting Broly? Well....because he was FIGHTING BROLY! Anybody who knows Broly knows that when Broly wants to kill you, you tend to have to give him your full-attention if you value your life. Trunks, Vegeta, Gohan, Piccolo and Goku were constantly being barraged by Broly's raw power, nobody had the time to push the planet away. Finally, pushing the planet would be moot for two reasons. One, even if they moved the planet it would only delay the inevitable because Broly is still around and now they expended their strength pushing the planet, and when your fighting Broly you need everything you've got. The Z-Senin BARELY made it out of their alive, and 2nd it was actually the power Goku gathered plus the comet which ended up defeating Broly, and even then it didn't kill him (see Broly: Second Coming). As for the Speed, what makes you think they aren't going lightspeed? A common DBZ move is vanishing and appearing behind your opponent instantly. Piccolo explains early in the anime Saiya-jin saga that this is a result of super speed and since the narrative said that Raditz could move faster then light, then that's the way it is. Finally the energy attacks. They are Chi, the text itself confirms this, it is a real religious belief and I wouldn't go around claiming it's just heat as you could potentially offend DBZ fans who practice those religions. Like it or not, it's Chi. Keep in mind DBZ has a great deal of Chinese ideology instilled in its story. The differences between attacks are a result of the fighter's style of combat (in the same manner that a Southern Fist punch is different from a Caporera punch). Fighters have similar abilitys just like in real life. Piccolo and Freiza both use a beam of chi, but Frieza's is more about piercing a pinpoint very small area such as the heart while Piccolo's is slower but capable of blowing a good hole in someone's chest. Frieza (who is a male btw lol) was exhausted from 1, surviving the Genki-dama Goku threw and 2, getting wailed on by Super Saiya-jin Goku. Furthermore, he wasn't in his full power. Also, Goku points out that Freiza was afraid of being killed by the blast, so he deliberately held back. And still, the attack did doom the planet. They explain all this and more in the manga.
As for the heat-effects of the energy attacks, that is easily explained in that it is the users personal energy. They can manipulate the chi of their universe to their liking, allowing them to give their attacks certain traits (burning, freezing, kinetic etc). Yamacha's Spirit Ball and the Shenrons are good examples of this.
ACCEL, you really can't trust the Funimation dubbing for jack. Check out the manga, they explain all this. None of this is speculation or assumption, the text itself says the attacks are chi, says the Z-Senin can move faster then light, and shows Goku to be capable of moving planets (see the incident with the Z-Sword during the Majin-Buu Saga, its like book #24 or so). When the text says so, then that is the way it is. Just like if the DC guys say "Superman can turn people into chocolate" then guess what? Superman can turn people into chocolate lol. Even if the aesthetics of the show lead you to believe differently the facts stand as they are. Brush up on your Dragonball knowledge before you try to make a counter-arguement. No offense implied in that but...dude......you thought Frieza was a chick...how hard is it to hear them say "Oh no! It's Frieza! HE is back! Look out for HIS power. Stay away from HIM!" Cooler refers to him as his little BROTHER, and King Cold calls him his SON. Not that I can't understand mistaking him for a girl what with the lipstick and voice and all but come on...that's just sloppy on your part.


"this was said by z boy's a million times lol.physic are not really the same. DB expresses the fighters with shock waves & explosions. DC doesn't work like that. because they have more control of there strengths. But if you watched the last episode of justice league unlimited, you will see superman using full strength & see how the city looked after. yes the story is not cannon with mainstream but it is a good representation of how superman powers work."
-This does not make sense to me I'm sorry. Those shockwaves and explosions aren't dependent on how much control they have over their strength, unless they were limiting their blows. Those craters are caused by the kinetic impact of the two fists colliding, just like when two trains hit at high speeds the force can shatter the ground. Research things like air-pressure and Newtonian physics to get a better explanation. Try it now, place a piece of paper on your desk about the size of a small insect and then slam your hand down on the desk next to the paper. The force/air pressure of your hand hitting the desk will blow away the paper. No matter how much control over your strength you have when you hit the table you cannot negate or control the force of the impact as doing that would count as manipulating physics (again see Newton). The only way to prevent the paper from blowing away is to not smack the table with full force. If you want to claim that Superman can punch as hard as a Z-Senin then the only logical explanation for the lack of collateral damage in Metropolis during the Doomsday fight was because Superman AND Doomsday were pulling their punches. Since Superman was fighting for his life and Doomsday has no regard for any life whatsoever, this was clearly not the case as it makes no sense. Therefore, you cannot claim that Superman is on that level of strength without causing a MAJOR PLOTHOLE to open. Please do not imply Superman has more "control" over his power then Goku when you provide no evidence whatsoever for making such a claim, and know little about Goku himself.


"its not just DC, its everything. Games, comics, movies, TV. all of them have light moving when time has stopped. i'm not saying he cant stop time, i'm saying its impossible for any body with time manipulation powers to stop light. its jsut out of there hands. only some one with light bending powers can stop light, which would make it dark. that's like some one with ice powers controlling the movements of the sun! its just out of their hands."
-This arguement assumes that the laws of physics are beyond the Chaos Forces manipulation, which they aren't because the Chaos Force is omnipotent. See above. Furthermore, even assuming this did work, the only way Superman could escape from Sonic's Time Stop would be if he was ALREADY going at lightspeed when Sonic used the ability, otherwise he cannot accelerate at all. When you make a specified speed mandatory and all other speeds moot, acceleration is negated. When Sonic stops time you can be one of three things:
1. Sonic, and free to move normally.
2. Moving at lightspeed, and free to move so long as you CONTINUALLY move at lightspeed
3. Moving slower then light and remaining frozen.
Since the only things moving in a time stop are Sonic and light itself Superman would have to be going lightspeed when the ability was first used, and if he slowed down, even just a little, he would be frozen because everything has been frozen save for things moving at lightspeed. In other words, in order to remain completely safe from Super Sonic's Time Stop, Superman would have to spend the ENTIRE FIGHT moving at lightspeed, which is a fairly farfetched idea. The SECOND he lowers his speed Sonic can freeze him and fire a celestial-body-obliterating Chaos Blast from point-blanc. Also, even if Superman was going lightspeed when Sonic used the ability, he would have no way to percieve it and would likely slow down and become frozen. That or Sonic himself could encumber Superman to a point where his speed fell below the speed of light. Stopping time is an absurdly uber ability. If Superman's "shields" are anything but a solid material, they would be left void as all other reactions below lightspeed have been left inert. This would be an instant win for Sonic, and theoretically this can work for both the game Super Sonic and the Sonic X Super Sonic as well as the comic Super Sonic. But again, this entire "Superman moving while time is stopped" point is moot as it assumes the Chaos Force can't bend the laws of physics, which it can. See above.


-I went ahead and took your advice ACCEL and checked out that last episode of JLU. I gotta say…..I’m highly disappointed in the big S. Seriously, that moment was incredibly underwhelming. I'm not being biased here, I liked JLU for the short time it was on Toonami, I watched pretty much every episode up until when Hawkman showed up, then I went to Tokyo. And I like Superman, he is a good guy, but I was just expecting more sorry. After his whole "I live in a world of cardboard" speech I was expecting some breathtaking feat of strength and speed, but what Superman displayed in that episode BARELY registers as basic Kaioken level. Punching someone through buildings is par-the-course in anything early-Frieza saga, plus the punch created a shockwave that didn’t even shatter the (comparably very fragile) concrete ground under Superman and Darkseid, it simply blew away the rubble from the wall Superman had previously punched him through. Forget Dragonball, Superman "cutting loose" was a blatantly "meh" moment for anyone who has watched an episode of practically any action anime at all. He wasn’t holding back, so the whole "controlling his strength" thing doesn’t make sense. Sides this "cut-loose" Superman wasn’t even fast enough to perform a vanishing attack, he actually had to fly at visible speed to catch up to the very slow moving Darkseid. This leads me to believe that Superman’s combat speed doesn’t come close to rivaling Sonic or any Z-Senin. Dissapointing.
Compare the following:

Superman "Cutting Loose":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ywo6F4xYTvA

Sonic goes insane with rage:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtvplkXKSaY

Assorted clips from the Broly fight (sorry bout the music -_-):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XW9vgaekNQ0...related&search=

(I am assuming posting links is legal in this forum and I apologize if I have stepped out of bounds but this was done in a hurry. If the administrators feel inclined, please feel free to remove the links.)
The perfomance superiority of the later two should be obvious to anyone. But I'll explain.
Sonic Unleashed:
Arguably, this isn't even Super Sonic, as there is the obvious lack of Chaos Emeralds. (Man the silent aura just creeps me out, how he just turns dark silently *shiver*). In case you don't have eyes (how are you reading this?), Sonic goes absolutely ape in this clip. Gold and Silver, the two robots Dark Oak was trying to pit Sonic against, were designed to rival Sonic's previous combat data. Gold was for strength, Silver was for speed. Dark Oak wanted to see what Sonic's limits were, so he programmed the bots to rival Sonic's estimated power (and yes, that INCLUDES Super Sonic as Dark Oak has personally taken him on). In other words, what Sonic did, in that clip, was instantly and unstoppably annihilate two Super Sonic-level opponents like it was nothing, IN HIS NORMAL FORM. Notice how neither bot can even put up a resistance, Sonic crushes them like nothing. His speed is so great he cannot even be percieved by Silver, and he does nothing short of commit a hanous act of carnage on Gold. The clip exists simply for the sake of saying "dont **** with Sonic." I'm not going to even bother writing a Sonic X performance estimate, as this clip pretty much shows how absurdly powerful he can be when provoked. And if you really want to claim that what "max power" Superman did in that clip comes even remotely close to what Sonic did in his, then well, your in blatant denial. Sorry, I'm trying to stay neutral but come on, the evidence is right there.
Broly Fight:
Did anyone else see the practical ATOMIC ERRUPTION Broly casually chucked from his fingers? His power is so strong it shatters the earth leaving a huge trench in his wake. Notice how just the punching makes the earth literally upchuck boulders? And I don't mean shatters, i mean literally pulls giant boulders up from the earth, like the earth is vomitting up its own innards. Notice how he punches the dude through a SOLID MOUNTAIN? Notice how Goku and Broly just charging at each other rends the very earth under them, shattering mountains and valleys like dust? The collateral damage and power being chucked around here EASILY eclipses the JLU "max power" Superman, whose blow didn't even cause the buildings to crumble, merely leaving holes in them. And keep in mind, this is Super Saiya-jin level 1...
The difference in ability is obvious to anyone. And yea, I realize it is kinda presumptious for me to ask you not to judge based on aesthetics and then provide video evidence, but I do this merely out of response to ACCEL.


ROCKS:
-ROCKS, your going to have to actually provide evidence to say that Darkseid is superior to Master Mogul, that is simply your opinion. Until then your point is void.
-Chaos Control is not dependent on a portal or a vortex aside from actually jumping through time. Where did you get that idea? Chaos Control is like a blank check to controlling time and space, it has been shown to be capable of a number of incredible feats, non of which have officially been stated as requiring any prep-time or special factors. There simply isn't enough proof to claim Superman could "escape" a Chaos Control as no such escape factors have been officially stated.
-Titan Tails is, however lame it is (I thought that story sucked to), basically God in his continuity. Saying he is just a beefy Tails just doesnt do him justice anymore then saying Superman Prime is just a golden-showered Superman lol.
-DBZ is not the topic of discussion here, that is another debate for another day.
-Sonic Wind is canon to the story. You can't simply say it isn't because the player cannot use it anymore then you can say Silver can't freeze people using Psychokinesis because you cannot do it while playing as him, or that Shadow can't use Chaos Control because that option isn't open to the player. Again, its a game, it has programming limits, I'm seriously dissapointed that none of you seem honest enough to admit this.


SECTION V
Performance Check:
Game Super Sonic:
I think the greatest source of evidence for making the Game Super Sonic case is to analyze the ending of Sonic the Hedgehog (NG). The battle with Solaris is possibly one of the most metaphorical, complex and decevingly simple events in all of Sonic game narratives. Let me break down the scene analytically and derive what evidence speaks to the abilities of Super Sonic.
First of all, Sonic is impaled by an energy spear by Mephiles. This scene proves, without a doubt, that NORMAL Sonic is quite vulnerable. Regardless, I don't think anyone here is making the arguement that any of the normal Sonics (with the possible exception of the deities of the Sonic comic) can best Superman.
Solaris awakens and immediately proceeds to erradicate all of time and space. This is confirmed when Eggman states that the only reason the Sonic crew is even alive is the result of a time-space rift, one that will soon fade. This confirms Solaris' power, as Eggman later states "it eats dimensions for lunch." Solaris has instantly obliterated all dimensions and timelines to a point of which the only surviving existence is that of the time-space rift.
Furthermore, Solaris is a "transcendent lifeform" which exists in all of time at once. "Defeating it here, now, wouldn't do anything"- Solaris has basically such dominance over time that he can make it so that he has always been and will always be. He is, as joe pointed out, "omnichronological". Omni-all + chrono-time = all time. It's sorta a made-up word but it is a good way to describe it. Solaris exists in the past, present and future all at once. The idea of Solaris existing in three seperate timelines is disproven in the dialogue, and makes no sense as the game only really introduces two (Sonic's timeline and Silver's timeline). Solaris is basically like God at this point, he exists in all time always. In terms of time, he is omnipotent. So even in this little distorted chunk of time and space, Solaris is eternal.
So yea, Solaris is pretty beefed at this point and everything seems hopeless. Sonic is dead and how do you stop something that exists in all time at once? The only reason the Sonic crew is even still around is cause this last-sludge-around-the-bathtub-drain chunk of time and space is left over. Solaris seems to have no weaknesses but Silver refuses to give up and insists that there is a way to win, claiming he'll destroy Solaris in the past, present and future all at once. Well, he's Silver and he is a young ignorant punk but Shadow says such a thing could be possible assuming they revive Sonic. So yea they scatter and go grab the Chaos Emeralds while Solaris happily munches on the last chunk of time and space, preparing to finally swallow up all existence (hence the portals).
Now, in this next part, there are an awful lot of religious events and themes floating around. As I said before, the Sonic crew, somehow is able to survive ALL OF TIME AND SPACE being crushed and live on this little time-space rift. That and the fact that Silver is there seems to imply that some higher force has orchestrated all this. The only thing that slows down Solaris' time-snacking is the owl statues, which are described in a very solemn manner. Next is the fact that everyone keeps refering to the power of the Chaos Emeralds as a "miracle", hell Elise even gets on her knees and pulls a nun here, praying to revive Sonic. She full out prays to the Chaos Emeralds like their talismans of God or something, and sure enough they rise up Sonic's body and allow him to be revived. My god it's Jesus, he's back.......except he's a hedgehog! Lol. The "miracle" of reviving Sonic proves that the Chaos Emeralds are envoys of a force which still holds power over even Solaris. The power of the Chaos Emeralds rivals Solaris. Yea, Solaris, the guy who just basically ripped existence itself a new one just by being born again. When Super Sonic returns the Chaos Emeralds are gone, most likely absorbed into Sonic's body. So yea, keep this in mind, the force which defied Solaris, the TIME-EATING, "OMNICHRONOLOGICAL" GOD, has been DIRECTLY ABSORBED INTO SONIC. Geez. So yea, Sonic is pretty beefed now as well, but it looks like he still can't compete with Solaris since he doesn't exist in an "omnichronological" fashion. So what to do, what to do. Well hey! Shadow and Silver are there to! Let's co-op this **** So Super Sonic, apparently having so much power that doesn't even know what to do with it, just pours it into Shadow and Silver, giving them Super Forms without Chaos Emeralds. They heroically rise up to challenge Solaris before it swallows up all existence.
But how the hell are they going to beat it? It has always existed, exists and will always exist. What weaknesses does it have? The good guys last ditch attack seems fairly hopeless and then it's revealed that, dun-duh duh duh! Solaris has a consciousness! Yippie! A weakness, it has a consciousness which anchors it's omnipotent form. So if Super Sonic, Super Shadow and Super Silver can subdue the consciousness, they may have a chance. Still, there's the whole problem of Solaris existing in all time. Well that's no longer a problem, we now have not one, not two but THREE time-bending demi-god hedgehogs who can join forces to defeat Solaris. So how does this work? Simple. Solaris exists in the "past", "present" and "future". Now while the Super Hedgehogs can't top that sort of time-mastery, they can sum their time-controlling powers to rival it. Sonic fights Solaris' consciousness where it is, Silver fights where it's going and Shadow fights where it's been. Together, the three hedgehogs have enough time-bending uber-power to rival a being which pretty much wiped out 99.9% of existence. This would also explain the whole "Solaris adapts to your attack" scheme, the consciousness escapes into where it is, where it's been and where it's going, forcing you to change hedgehogs as a result. It's a battle through all of time despite the crappy background.
So yea Solaris takes a beating and changes form. It's body is invincible and the only thing that saves the day is that it still harbors a consciousness. After wailing on the consciousness enough, Solaris is "defeated" and time essentially "blacks out", leaving Sonic and Elise floating in a void. The consciousness of Solaris has been subdued to a point of returning to its infancy, returning itself to the simple flame which began all events. By whatever miracle allows them to be there (again the religious theme), Sonic and Elise blow out the last remnant of Solaris and time essentially restarts, growing from that instant and branching out, restoring the universe to the way it once was. So everything is set right and the good guys win.


I'm sure alot of you have your own interpretation of what happens in Last Episode, but look, i'm just going by the official dialogue here. They say Solaris easily obliterates dimensions, so that is the way it is, there are no if, ands or buts about it. If your going to disagree, your going to have to support your theory with actual quoting of the script instead of simply saying "actually, this is what I say happens".
Anyway, lets take what we have examined in this scene:
-Destiny: The entire final episode STRONGLY suggests that Sonic is a destined hero who is protected by some God-esque power. His soul refuses to leave his body after he is stabbed, he is able to survive the obliteration of nearly all time and space, is able to come back to life and is allowed to remain with Elise even at the very end when time has blacked-out. Seriously, somebody upstairs is looking out for him.
-Power: While not showing off the feats of Superman or the Archie Super Sonic, the game's narrative implies that its version of Super Sonic is incredibly powerful by suggesting his power three-fold is enough to effortlessly wipe out dimensions. That may sound like assumption but folks, its in the actual dialogue, making it official. Solaris= omnipotent god of time and eater of dimensions. Super Sonic + Super Shadow + Super Silver= enough power to rival or surpass Solaris. Therefore, Super Sonic = 1/3rd the power of omnipotent god of time and eater of dimensions. Consider just how damn cocky both Shadow and Sonic are when fighting Solaris. "A superdimensional being, this may even be a fair fight!" and "It's my turn! Let's have some fun Solaris!" Not exactly the hardened war-cries of those who actually fear for their lives, sounds more like two cocky warriors enjoying a good battle. Keeping in mind that they are challenging something that "eats dimensions for lunch", they sure imply that they won't have too much trouble with it. Also, consider how freaking easy the final boss fight is, it takes more effort to loose then to win it. It may not be as astounding a feat as Superman hauling a galaxy but just think about how terrible the situation was with Solaris and just how the seemingly-hopeless situation was so quickly turned-around by the Super Hedgehogs. Again, just because the actual aesthetics lead you to believe differently doesn't mean things aren't what the writers say they are. Also, the scene implies Super Sonic's power is unlimited as he effortlessly powers up Shadow and Silver into their Super forms without any drawbacks.
-One with God?: Again, the whole "miracle" theme, reviving Sonic and the fact that the power fueling Super Sonic is one that is able to ultimately top that of Solaris. This would strongly imply that the power of the Chaos Emeralds comes from Sonic's equivalent of the Source. It would be hard to argue for any other force fueling the Super Hedgehogs other then the ultimate power of their universe as, thanks to Solaris, pretty much everything else in existence has been wiped out. "Time to unleash the ultimate power" Hmmm
I have NOT pointed out these factors in order to claim a superiority index to Superman. Please don't reply with "Yea, well Superman survived/performed/has ___ and ___ and ___ so he is more destined/powerful/harmonized with god then Sonic!". I am merely pointing out what the game Super Sonic has going for him, I make no claims of superiority to Superman.
-Look folks, when you really accept the full extent of Solaris' power, its fairly hard to argue that Superman alone can defeat him. See Sections "Being Decieved by Aesthetics" and "Painful Assumptions" before you begin to argue that Superman can really rival Solaris. What your all forgetting is Solaris' dc, the only thing which can effectively damage him is a group of demi-god time-controllers who sum their collective time-space manipulating powers to exist throughout all time. Superman is tough, yes, but im pretty sure he doesn't have the time-controlling powers to exist in all time eternally like Solaris or the 3 great hedgehogs united, no matter how many clones you make of him.
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The Ultramind12
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Fist of the North Star
SECTION VI:
Conclusion:
It seems to me that all three Super Sonic's can rival the power of Superman. And I mean RIVAL, not SURPASS, as in they can give Superman a good fight. As for who would actually win in a fight, well, considering the Time Stop Chaos Blast Lock, I'm gonna have to give the win to both the Sonic X Super Sonic and Comic Super Sonic. Comic Super Sonic is just broken, and SonicX Super Sonic is also pretty damn absurd what with Chaos Control. Freezing time is just too broken an ability. The idea of Superman knowing SS can stop time, knowing he needs to move lightspeed to evade it, and constantly moving lightspeed is just retarded. It would probably be a decent fight until Super Sonic used the TS CB Lock, then it's over. As for the Game Super Sonic.......meh that is still debatable. He can't fulfill the TS CBlast Lock unless he really beefs up Sonic Wind. However, if the lock does negate Superman's shields, any Sonic with Chaos Control has got an instant win, even a normal Sonic. See above.
The thing is, Superman's biggest strength is also his greatest weakness: the length of his story. The length of his series, while giving him a great deal of powers and strengths, has also revealed he has alot of weaknesses. Many forces, kinetic, magic etc have been shown to damage Superman. He has often been brought to his knees by very mortal means by very mortal men, and has been damaged by simple things like laser-like technology and weaponry. Basic superhumans and the most ass-backwards of alien lifeforms (alien ant people -_-) have been shown to give him troubles over the years. In other words, Superman has been shown to be just as weak as he is powerful. Batman said it best "Clark, with all that power you forget how vulnerable you can be."
Super Sonic's big advantage in this fight is his crappy writing staff -_-. Sad but true. Super Sonic has simply appeared so rarely, and in such choppy storylines, that the writers just made him uber rather then making the effort to actually explain the specifics of his weaknesses and strengths. Claiming Super Sonic can be hurt by anything other then Chaos Energy-users is assumption due to the crappy writing, so were left with an annoyingly untouchable character. Sure we can say things like "I think if you threw Super Sonic into the sun he would be defeated", that's all well and good, but it's still assumption. It may or it may not be true, it can never lead to a definite end because we don't have anything to base it on. The writers, in their lazyness, simply made a uber-level of conflict (oh no a Super enemy! Better go grab the emeralds and go Super Sonic!) for SS to play on, rather then putting in the effort to flesh him out more.
Superman, on the other hand, is not a rarity in his storyline, he is the central character. As such, he can't truly be invincible because that would get boring, the readers demmand conflict. So they make it so that Superman isn't truly invincible, he can be harmed by quite alot of things. Super Sonic, on the other hand, isn't the main form of Sonic and is therefore not the main character (ie Sonic isn't SS all the time). He is a rarity, and as such they just went ahead and made him broken to compensate for choppy storylines (it's much harder to define what does and what doesn't hurt SS then to just use the storyline to suggest he is uber).
Your pitting a special character (Super Sonic) against a main character (Superman). Right away it's an unfair fight, Superman HAS to have some weaknesses because thats what a main character has to have. Super Sonic doesn't, he is special. They can let him be uber cause his appearances are brief. Seems unfair to me.

Still...I'm trying to be neutral here. I'm willing to change perspectives if the Superman fans can acceptibly respond to all this with their own references and information. However, I don't mean simply reffering to what Superman has done (ex: In issue #768 Superman moves Jupiter etc), I'm talking about counter-evidence. I already know Superman is beefed, I need some strategy here, not raw power. For example, Superman finding a way to negate a time-freeze, something that would give him a SPECIFIC edge over Super Sonic. In other words, some power of ability that SPECIFICALLY works to counter Super Sonic (Like how the TS CBlast Lock works on Superman). Everybody is entittled to their opinion, but all I'm going to say to moot points is "see above".
I kind of think this is a good way to end it cause everybody sort of wins in a way. Sure Super Sonic wins the battle but it is only cause SS's writers suck while Superman's writing staff actually know about drama and conflict. The only reason Superman looses is cause he has the better storyline lol. Also, Superman Prime beats everbody anyway, the only possible Sonic that could rival him is watever divine form Sonic ultimately attains.
But finally, I just want to say while the idea of Super Sonic and Superman even having REASON to fight each other is retarded enough, the idea of them KILLING each other is even more retarded. Seriously guys, they both have a no-killing policy towards sentient lifeforms and both have gone to great lengths to preserve those moral codes. It would most likely end in a stalemate after they both realize wailing on the other is pointless without intention to kill as their too evenly matched. Seriously though, this fight is retarded, they're both good guys who would find some way to put aside their differences.
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Maltese
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Fire 1, fire 2, fire 1, fire 2....
While your arguement did truely impress me, I beleive Superman would win due to one factor. His writers ability to godmod. They will pull anything out of their ass to keep Supes from losing. And several more of your points. Superman cannot dodge the kryptonite bullet because of the kryptonite radiation compromising his superpowers. And when you mention Supersonic moving THROUGH people, I have a theory. Let us reference DC's resident Speedster, The Flash. Flash can make his atoms vibrate at a frequency that allows him to move through normal matter. He uses ot alot to go through walls or to avoid beeing hit by bullets. But again, that is only theory.

Another fun battle. Supersonic Vs. Superman when Galactus made him his herald. See Superman/Fantastic Four crossover volume 2
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The Ultramind12
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Fist of the North Star
Ain't my arguement.

And the topic was Super Sonic vs. NORMAL Superman. No Superman Prime or any of that crap, because he's just flatout broken as all holy hell.

And Supes' writers can godmode all they want. Fact stands that Super Sonic can bend physics and hence he wins.
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Maltese
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Fire 1, fire 2, fire 1, fire 2....
Who is superman prime? Do you mean lame, killed SuperBOY Prime?
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Atomic Inferno
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it's a midnight ride
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God, don't start yet ANOTHER argument...
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The Ultramind12
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Fist of the North Star
No, I mean SuperMAN Prime. Who is broken as all holy hell.
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Maltese
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Fire 1, fire 2, fire 1, fire 2....
I'm not trying to. Seriously.

Wait, From DC 1,000,000? Yeah, that was just ob-frikken-surd
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The Ultramind12
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Fist of the North Star
I dunno what the hell Superman Prime actually is, but the way they were talking about him in the topic sounded like he was just the most broken thing ever.
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