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Crystal Tokyo Forms; For the Sailor Soldiers
Topic Started: Jun 14 2009, 09:57 PM (1,923 Views)
Darkury
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Not that Stupid Flying Horse
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Well, we can see the outers as profiles in the SailorV manga, so I think Naoko already had the outers in her mind.


Cool. I didn't know that.
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ArtemisX
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Moon Fairy
What Cloud said is pretty much what I always thought to be how things went and why I even brought up Chibiusa's time travel into this oh so many post ago.

And yeah basically, the real reason behind all of this is simply that Naoko didn't think in the future of the story when she wrote it, she just concentrated on the current arc. But if you try to make it logical it makes more sense than the upgrades and the fights have some direct connection with Chibiusa's incestual/beastiality (O_o she hit on a horse and her father people!) presence in the present timeline.
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Chains Of Fate
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President of Crystal Tokyo
While Chibiusa was certainly influential in the Dream arc, it can't be said that it wouldn't have occurred had she not been there. The main plot was essentially about Nehellenia getting the Golden Crystal which Mamoru possessed.
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Cloud
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True, but, as I've already said, there are too many things that placed Chibiusa's role in the center of the story.

Crystal Tokyo's future queen has a different background and storyline, the fact she still has the R wand in the future is just a little example..... I'm not Naoko Takeuchi but I think it's pretty obvious that events changed after Chibi's trip.

Edited by Cloud, Jul 17 2009, 09:19 PM.
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Hermes
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Moon Fairy
Chains Of Fate
Jul 17 2009, 08:33 PM
While Chibiusa was certainly influential in the Dream arc, it can't be said that it wouldn't have occurred had she not been there. The main plot was essentially about Nehellenia getting the Golden Crystal which Mamoru possessed.
Exactly, that's what I was trying to explain.

ChibiUsa certainly changed the past and made some events happen, but she is NOT the actual reason for any enemy to appear and being defeated. So, all enemies could have shown up, and original timeline's Sailor Moon could have beaten them anyway.

For example, ChibiUsa met Hotaru and they became friends, which as a very important aspect of the third arc. But all the Sailor Saturn and Pharaoh 90 stuff could have happened without that fact and even without ChibUsa's Silver Crystal.

We only know the events of the already-altered present, and by no means they exclude the possibility of such same events happening in the original timeline. They just happen differently. I mean, two paths (with and without Small Lady, and with their respective intermediate events) may lead to the same goal. It's not impossible at all.

About the fourth arc... I think Could could be mixing anime and manga concepts. In the anime, ChibiUsa is indeed a key character and her relationship with Pegasus leads the whole plot. But is the anime generally coherent plotwise? Is it what Chains is considering the most? Actually, no.

In the manga's fourth arc, Pegasus does contact with ChibiUsa, but as Chains points out, the actual motors of the plot are Nehellenia, the Golden Kingdom, Mamoru, Helios and the Golden Crystal (all of them coming from the Silver Millennium time).

Right, Pegasus and Sailor ChibiMoon fall in love, and that's important for the present, but... does that exclude the fact of Pegasus coming into Tuxedo Kamen's and Sailor Moon's lives for saving Elysion in an original timeline? Does it exclude all the power up's? In a utshell (again): is ChibiUsa's presence needed for everything to happen?

It may be needed for events to happen as we know them, yes. But that is only the already-altered present, as I stated. Since she traveled to the past and changed it, events are supposed to have happened, at least partially, in a different way. And that way may not have needed her at all.

NOTHING (not even Super Sailor Moon transforming into Eternal Sailor Moon) needs of ChibiUsa's presence directly. Things can come across by different means.
Edited by Hermes, Jul 17 2009, 11:47 PM.
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Darkury
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Not that Stupid Flying Horse
It still doesn't make sense upgrade wise. If Neo Queen Serenity still had her R wand, that means she didn't upgrade and that she beat all the enemies merely as regular Sailor Moon. If the enemies though keep getting more powerful, I don't see how that would work.
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sicknpsyko
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Moon Fairy
What if the wand itself was just more powerful when used by Neo Queen Serenity? JupiterConfused
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ArtemisX
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Moon Fairy
You know, I think this topic has gone way out of the point. I believe Chibiusa's presence had an effect on the upgrades, not necesarally the villians, but Neo Queen Upgrading herself is still the key point in this. HOWEVER, that could easily be wrong, and it could be set in a timeline where everything happened in the past or very similar to how it went in the past. Any one of us can come up with a number of reasons for our own point of view.

Cause as I said, Naoko didn't plan ahead! This topic however isn't about interpreting what the logic behind the time travel was. or even how it was in the manga. this is about the game.

Chains gave us two options, with Eternal Forms, implying that all that happens is supposed to happen, or with their normal Forms, implying to side with a theory that supports the lack of upgrade... and since everyone seems to have voted for Eternal Forms, I think is pretty clear what we all want as far as the game.

Otherwise this will go on forever, cause unless one of you has access to Takeuchi-sama's head as to inquire as to how the retcon (Cause at the end of the day that is what it was) adapts the drawings prior to the change there's no way to tell what's the correct theory.
Edited by ArtemisX, Jul 18 2009, 06:50 AM.
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Hermes
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Moon Fairy
Darkury
Jul 18 2009, 12:51 AM
It still doesn't make sense upgrade wise. If Neo Queen Serenity still had her R wand, that means she didn't upgrade and that she beat all the enemies merely as regular Sailor Moon. If the enemies though keep getting more powerful, I don't see how that would work.
I think that, regarding the Queen's rod subject, we are probably going into the confusing "Naoko hadn't yet thought of future plotlines, magical items, etc". The worst thing is that we'll never know if she drew it intentionally or not... XD

Anyway, I'll repeat myself here. Do we know how powerful the Queen's Cutie Moon Rod actually was in the original timeline? Do we know if she had previously owned some of the canon rods as a Soldier, and at Crystal Tokyo time she decided to carry the second one due to its royal look? No. And we could go on and on.

What I mean is that we know virtually nothing about the past into which ChibiUsa hadn't traveled. We're just trying to be as coherent as possible, and speculate on a completely different original timeline about which we don't have any clue doesn't help.

If the events I've been addressing and the ones from the already-aletered present excluded each other, of course I wouldn't go for the "it all happened" thing, since we're trying to achieve coherence. But they don't, not at all.

By the way, what may give us a clue is that Neo Queen Serenity doesn't carry any rod from the second arc on, neither the Heart Moon Rod. In the Stars manga, she holds a long stick while talking to Small Lady, but the top of it isn't shown. I guess not even Naoko was certain about this crazy stuff, LOL.
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Haruka Tenoh
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Meatball Head
Note about Uranus and Neptune: Like Pluto, they too were secluded from the rest of the scouts.

And, if this topic at all relates to the game, you could probably just make it easier by deciding that ChibiUsa did not change the past and ignoring inconsistencies in that theory.
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Chains Of Fate
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The key thing that we've decided is that we want the Sailor Soldiers to be in their eternal forms when seen in the future. The Queen's wand is a small issue, we can just give her the wand that she used as Eternal Sailor Moon.

As has been said, Naoko did not think ahead while drawing the manga, that would have been too time consuming and she didn't always plan on advancing the story. Time constraints wouldn't have allowed her to.

One last thing I'd like to point out is that if the new timeline with Chibusa was radically different from the original timeline, we would know because it would have affected the future. When you deal with time travel to the past, the future is always changing because time is being altered. Naoko however did not make changes in the future, so I think its safe to assume that Neo Queen Serenity's past still held the same key events that Usagi faces in the present.
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Cloud
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One last thing I'd like to point out is that if the new timeline with Chibusa was radically different from the original timeline, we would know because it would have affected the future. When you deal with time travel to the past, the future is always changing because time is being altered.


It's not radically different, it's just different....
I totally agreed with what you just said, but as we see, things changed...
Naoko made clear that Queen Serenity has upgraded her powers after the R events, this means that Queen Serenity's past is different.

If you play in the past, the future will also change, Galaxia in the 5 arc was changing the future, as Queen Serenity said "the past is changing".

Quote:
 
You know, I think this topic has gone way out of the point. I believe Chibiusa's presence had an effect on the upgrades, not necesarally the villians, but Neo Queen Upgrading herself is still the key point in this.


Agreed...

Quote:
 
We only know the events of the already-altered present, and by no means they exclude the possibility of such same events happening in the original timeline. They just happen differently. I mean, two paths (with and without Small Lady, and with their respective intermediate events) may lead to the same goal. It's not impossible at all.


"Yes, we know that the Queen does possess the grail in the future, but it's not the same item, the Grail summoned and used in the past by the royal members of the family is totally different from Grail of the Queen.
Chibiusa saw the "original" one as a picture frame in the Queen's room, she knew her mom can used it if a Crisis happened.... but that grail is different from both Super Sailor Moon and Eternal Sailor Moon's grail, the first one was created using clay (!!!) and then it powered up in the dream arc. The future grail is very similar to a true catholic grail. It may be a special item created by Neo Queen Serenity in the future, who knew?"

As I've previously said, there is no way for Moon to upgrade into Super Moon without the holy grail, no chibiusa, no grail.

Quote:
 
Right, Pegasus and Sailor ChibiMoon fall in love, and that's important for the present, but... does that exclude the fact of Pegasus coming into Tuxedo Kamen's and Sailor Moon's lives for saving Elysion in an original timeline? Does it exclude all the power up's? In a utshell (again): is ChibiUsa's presence needed for everything to happen?


In the forth season of the anime the Dead Moon is searching for Pegasus, Pegasus was searching for Chibiusa.... so, no Chbiusa, no Pegasus, no super forms for the senshi....

Also remember, Sailor Chibimoon's energy was required for Moon to upgrade into her eternal form in both anime and manga...

I would love to see the future senshi wearing the eternal forms too.... but, is it right?
Edited by Cloud, Jul 18 2009, 02:37 PM.
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Darkury
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Not that Stupid Flying Horse
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"Yes, we know that the Queen does possess the grail in the future, but it's not the same item, the Grail summoned and used in the past by the royal members of the family is totally different from Grail of the Queen.
Chibiusa saw the "original" one as a picture frame in the Queen's room, she knew her mom can used it if a Crisis happened.... but that grail is different from both Super Sailor Moon and Eternal Sailor Moon's grail, the first one was created using clay (!!!) and then it powered up in the dream arc. The future grail is very similar to a true catholic grail. It may be a special item created by Neo Queen Serenity in the future, who knew?"


Didn't Queen Serenity drink from the grail to keep her youthly appearance?

Quote:
 
In the forth season of the anime the Dead Moon is searching for Pegasus, Pegasus was searching for Chibiusa.... so, no Chbiusa, no Pegasus, no super forms for the senshi....

Also remember, Sailor Chibimoon's energy was required for Moon to upgrade into her eternal form in both anime and manga...

I would love to see the future senshi wearing the eternal forms too.... but, is it right?


But what about the Manga? The senshi must have had their Sailor Crystals in the Manga to transform. I think the best bet was that in the original timeline, Sailor Moon never got the grail, and the senshi's costumes were never changed. Maybe they got in increase in power, but just the same costume.
Edited by Darkury, Jul 18 2009, 04:05 PM.
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Cloud
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Darkury
Jul 18 2009, 04:04 PM
Quote:
 
"Yes, we know that the Queen does possess the grail in the future, but it's not the same item, the Grail summoned and used in the past by the royal members of the family is totally different from Grail of the Queen.
Chibiusa saw the "original" one as a picture frame in the Queen's room, she knew her mom can used it if a Crisis happened.... but that grail is different from both Super Sailor Moon and Eternal Sailor Moon's grail, the first one was created using clay (!!!) and then it powered up in the dream arc. The future grail is very similar to a true catholic grail. It may be a special item created by Neo Queen Serenity in the future, who knew?"


Didn't Queen Serenity drink from the grail to keep her youthly appearance?

Quote:
 
In the forth season of the anime the Dead Moon is searching for Pegasus, Pegasus was searching for Chibiusa.... so, no Chbiusa, no Pegasus, no super forms for the senshi....

Also remember, Sailor Chibimoon's energy was required for Moon to upgrade into her eternal form in both anime and manga...

I would love to see the future senshi wearing the eternal forms too.... but, is it right?


Can't remember this detail... LunaDown

Quote:
 
I think the best bet was that in the original timeline, Sailor Moon never got the grail, and the senshi's costumes were never changed. Maybe they got in increase in power, but just the same costume.


Yup, maybe. ArtemisSit
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Darkury
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Not that Stupid Flying Horse
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Can't remember this detail...


Maybe I just imagined it. JupiterConfused I swear I saw something about that on a website. Of course I don't know the legitmacy of it.
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