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Crystal Tokyo Forms; For the Sailor Soldiers
Topic Started: Jun 14 2009, 09:57 PM (1,924 Views)
Rumn-Snuffles
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Anthropomorphic Personification
flamesoul32
Jul 10 2009, 12:33 PM
Chains Of Fate
Jul 10 2009, 07:56 AM
It can't really be said for sure how things would have happened in the timeline because of the Black Moon. We don't know if the events happened somewhat the same way in both cases.

Even more so, Naoko had not designed the Super and Eternal forms for the Soldiers when she wrote the Black Moon arc, so it would have been impossible for her to have used them.

Neo Queen Serenity surely had to fight the Death Busters, the Dead Moon Circus, and Galaxia in the "original timeline" (provided that its even different.) Even if they didn't fight the Black Moon.

Its during those battles that they gained their Super and Eternal forms, so either way you look at it, them having their eternal forms would be accurate.

As far as the princess dresses, they will wear those in the future during casual and formal times.
I think I like my more story related explanation for why their not in eternal form in the future...

@Chains: Are you useing the theory that there is an "original timeline" (meaning that the modern timeline is mostly separate from the future) or that there is a single timeline (meaning that the senshi of the future lived through the events of the past). My previous post had a lot more detail on the two theory's and the reason their in basic form.

@Rumn-Snuffles: Future Pluto can see the past in the time gates. It wouldn't be as hard as you think to remeber what happened back then. Also the future events would be at least partialy staged(can't use the time gates to remeber those scenes) to try to prevent a parodox.
Oh, but of course! I totally agree with your's... and now I reckon they should wear the same form as the senshi in the present... the story being that they deliberately power down to prevent paradoxes/future spoilers more than they need to...

So I'm totally with you, Flame soul... It's really cool to have a story reason behind why they are in powered down forms... and I like the mystery of not knowing if they power up further than the eternal in between the present and future.... UsagiLaugh
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Darkury
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Not that Stupid Flying Horse
It honestly doesn't have to make sense, seeing as girls with magical powers and talking cats doesn't seem to make much sense either. UsagiLaugh
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flamesoul32
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Persona of Will
A story ought to make sense within the context of it's setting(at least to it's creator).That's a basic rule when creating anything. If it doesn't there is a rather large problem with the creation itself.

@Rumn-Snuffles: I didn't even think of the fact that they could actually be beyond the eternal form by the time the incident with the black moon occur. That's a very interesting idea that could be true. Although I have no idea what a higher form would be called.
Edited by flamesoul32, Jul 12 2009, 12:31 AM.
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ArtemisX
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Moon Fairy
flamesoul32
Jul 12 2009, 12:25 AM


@Rumn-Snuffles: I didn't even think of the fact that they could actually be beyond the eternal form by the time the incident with the black moon occur. That's a very interesting idea that could be true. Although I have no idea what a higher form would be called.
Legendary Sailor Moon!.... Ultimate Sailor Moon!....Oh My God These Freaking Wings Are Getting Way To Big For My Back To Handle Sailor Moon.

I also like the idea of them not presenting themselves in eternal form to their past selves. this whole issue can be solved by just not letting the past guys see the Eternal Forms, just us as players.
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Darkury
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Not that Stupid Flying Horse
Quote:
 
A story ought to make sense within the context of it's setting(at least to it's creator).That's a basic rule when creating anything. If it doesn't there is a rather large problem with the creation itself.


What I meant was you where trying to fix in all these paradoxes(is that even a word?) into it, it only got more confusing. It doesn't have to be 100% accurate or logical is what I meant to say, but it atleast makes some sort of sense.
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Sailor_of_Rebirth
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Moon Flunkie
The way I look at it...

The scouts in ChibiMoonWin 's time had already experienced doing this, and knew that, not only did they have to guard the queen with their power (not sure if that's just in the anime, I'm going off what I remember at this point, I'll need to re-read the manga) and they knew their past selves needed to do this to power up. The fact that they didn't fight off the Dark Moon themselves doesn't show weakness, but that they knew their past selves needed to power-up, and they allowed them to do so by focusing their Eternal power on protecting Neo Queen.

So I think they should be in their Eternal forms. :-) UsagiHappy
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flamesoul32
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Persona of Will
@Darkury: I think the whole talk about the paradoxes(I don't think that is a word) is people trying to have it make sense. It gets confusing if you don't understand what a person is talking about, and yes while I perfectly understood what I was talking about anything with timetraval in it is confusing. I do get your point of just keeping it simple and going with it but I personaly have fun making sense of things that are confusing or puzzling.

@ArtemisX: as long as the words ultimate, mega, and magical are not in the higher titles I'll be happy.
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Rumn-Snuffles
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flamesoul32
Jul 12 2009, 08:12 PM
@ArtemisX: as long as the words ultimate, mega, and magical are not in the higher titles I'll be happy.
@Darkury: Too true... It's just nice to have it all work out logically... But when you have to read the workings-out and don't get it, it does royally suck UsagiLaugh

And too right, I'd hate an Ultimate Sailor Moon... JupiterBlush

...But for some reason that made me think of Angel Sanctuary... Those supreme angels had like, six wings? just thinner and longer...

I just pictured Sailor Moon with that and an even frillier outfit... UsagiLaugh

But that would be overdoing it... I just like the idea that it leaves space for that kind of possibility... Without actually forcing some fan-theory on the players VenusPose
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Cloud
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Sailor Soldier
Chains Of Fate
Jul 10 2009, 07:56 AM
Neo Queen Serenity surely had to fight the Death Busters, the Dead Moon Circus, and Galaxia in the "original timeline" (provided that its even different.) Even if they didn't fight the Black Moon.
Mmmm.... I don't think so....
Those events require Chibimoon's trip in the past.

Remember, Queen Serenity and Sailor Moon powered up at the same moment (cosmic power), before the S events, the same happened to the other senshi, this means that Queen Serenity never fought the Death busters before.

Edited by Cloud, Jul 15 2009, 09:08 PM.
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Darkury
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Not that Stupid Flying Horse
I also aqree with the theory that Chibi-Usa changed the past. I am not exactly sure how, but she did. UsagiLaugh
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Chains Of Fate
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President of Crystal Tokyo
But how is that possible? All of those villains had to have appeared in the original timeline, their plans had nothing to do with Chibiusa and wouldn't have been affected by her appearance. Also, Neo Queen Serenity sent Chibiusa into the past to train as a soldier, perhaps she knew that Chibiusa would be helping in the upcoming battles? And Neo Queen Serenity does possess the holy grail in the original future, right?
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Hermes
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Moon Fairy
I think Cloud's idea is very smart, and certainly sounds plausible.

But anyway, are both facts mutually exclusive? I don't think so.

As Chains points outs, in ChibiUsa's own words during the third arc, Neo Queen Serenity already possessed the Grail before the little brat's first travel to the past (and therefore, before Black Moon's attack and all previous events, whatever they might be).

Also, we have no notice at all about the Queen's powers in the 30th century being boosted after ChibiUsa interfering the third arc's original timeline; hence (according to Diana in the fourth arc), such powers were already Eternal Sailor Moon's next stage by then. Following a logical theoretical process, Eternal Sailor Moon had existed from the beggining, before ChibiUsa's travel.

Sticking to what's logical, I guess it's safe to say that ChibUsa indeed changed the past in some way. But how? To which extent? I think she made some certain events happen, and made some other events happen in a different way than in the original timeline. But that should be all. Remember, and I think this is crucial, that her interventions are not that extremely influential on how enemies appear and how they are defeated, which is what actually matters regarding power up's.

In a nutshell, supporting that Neo Queen Serenity had fought all the canon enemies before ChibiUsa first travelling to the past makes perfect sense (and I'd say, more sense than trying to connect broken timeline links with much more complicated and out-of-the-path theories).
Edited by Hermes, Jul 16 2009, 02:03 PM.
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Cloud
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Quote:
 
I think Cloud's idea is very smart, and certainly sounds plausible.


Thank you Hermes.

Quote:
 
And Neo Queen Serenity does possess the holy grail in the original future, right?


Quote:
 
As Chains points outs, in ChibiUsa's own words during the third arc, Neo Queen Serenity already possessed the Grail before the little brat's first travel to the past (and therefore, before Black Moon's attack and all previous events, whatever they might be).


Yes, we know that the Queen does possess the grail in the future, but it's not the same item, the Grail summoned and used in the past by the royal members of the family is totally different from Grail of the Queen.
Chibiusa saw the "original" one as a picture frame in the Queen's room, she knew her mom can used it if a Crisis happened.... but that grail is different from both Super Sailor Moon and Eternal Sailor Moon's grail, the first one was created using clay (!!!) and then it powered up in the dream arc. The future grail is very similar to a true catholic grail. It may be a special item created by Neo Queen Serenity in the future, who knew?
Answering to this:

Quote:
 
Remember, and I think this is crucial, that her interventions are not that extremely influential on how enemies appear and how they are defeated, which is what actually matters regarding power up's.


We can say that Chibiusa by taking the "grail idea" to the past let Sailor Moon to become Super Sailor Moon, she actually changed the past and the way enemies are defeated by letting Moon to power up into her super form.

Quote:
 
All of those villains had to have appeared in the original timeline, their plans had nothing to do with Chibiusa and wouldn't have been affected by her appearance.


Well, the whole dream arc is based on Chibiusa's char, No Chibiusa, no pegasus....etc...

Quote:
 
Also, we have no notice at all about the Queen's powers in the 30th century being boosted after ChibiUsa interfering the third arc's original timeline; hence (according to Diana in the fourth arc), such powers were already Eternal Sailor Moon's next stage by then. Following a logical theoretical process, Eternal Sailor Moon had existed from the beggining, before ChibiUsa's travel.


We know that the Queen (in the original story) has lost her powers to become Sailor Moon by her wish, the events in the 4 season changed this, cause Serenity's coronation ceremony happened at the end of the forth season but Usagi still had the power to transform into sailor moon in the stars events.
Diana refers to eternal sailor moon's powers being very similar to the queen's.... this means that her power are as strong as the queen's, but that's all. The future queen may simply have lost the power to become the "classic" sailor moon (remember, her wand is the same as Sailor Moon's R wand), but her powers may had boosted in the process.
Again, we only know that Eternal Sailor Moon's powers are very similar to the queen's, but we can't say that eternal Sailor moon is required in the process "from princess to queen".

I can say there is no way for the future queen to have fought the Death Busters in the way we read in the mugen arc of the manga, she maybe created/used that grail, defeating them by using that "crisis" power, wich was not used to become Super Sailor Moon, as previously stated, that's all.

Updating her wand at the same time as her past ego is a non sense if the Queen already had fought the Busters. The future queen should already have the eternal tier.... but that item was acquired only at the end of the four season, so yes, her past was changed.
The future Queen, being much more powerful than Sailor Moon, has upgraded her powers (and the other senshi's) in order to help her facing the new upcoming events.

Let alone the Galaxia events..... The future was also influenced by that, the queen don't know anything about Galaxia cause she is attacking the past..... she sent back sailor chibimoon to investigate.
The queen never fought as eternal sailor moon, also, eternal sailor moon's stronger attack, silver moon crystal power kiss, is a power discovered by fighting the evil senshi, and since the queen don't know anything about the galaxia events we can clearly say that she never used that attack power cause she never acquired it in the previous "storyline".

Hope you can understand my point, it's hard for me to explain in english.... LunaDown
Edited by Cloud, Jul 17 2009, 09:48 AM.
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Darkury
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Not that Stupid Flying Horse
Also take note that Chibi-Usa's Hoste/Silver Crystal was stolen and used to feed Pharoah 90.

Could it be plausible that in the original timeline that Pharoah 90 was never released, and they beat the Death Busters before that, even without the upgrades by Neo Queen Serenity. Couldn't that also be the reason Uranus, Neptune and Saturn weren't seen. And yes, I know they weren't created by Naoko by that time, but maybe their powers weren't needed. It was with Saturn they defeated Pharaoh 90, but if he was never released, she wouldn't be needed.

Edited by Darkury, Jul 17 2009, 12:19 AM.
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Cloud
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Also take note that Chibi-Usa's Hoste/Silver Crystal was stolen and used to feed Pharoah 90.


Exactly

Quote:
 
Couldn't that also be the reason Uranus, Neptune and Saturn weren't seen. And yes, I know they weren't created by Naoko by that time, but maybe their powers weren't needed.


Well, we can see the outers as profiles in the SailorV manga, so I think Naoko already had the outers in her mind.
Edited by Cloud, Jul 17 2009, 07:18 AM.
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