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Scotland Votes No; United Kingdom remains intact
Topic Started: Sep 19 2014, 12:19 AM (209 Views)
Lowe Gear
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HNH

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/20/world/europe/scotland-independence-vote-no.html?referrer=

As someone of Scottish descent, I have very mixed emotions about this. A part of me was championing the independence movement, spurred on by the complaints that the UK's government, particularly the House of Lords, was not sufficiently representative of the wishes of the Scottish people, and how too many of Scotland's resources were used to fuel projects Scotland didn't benefit from. And of course, the fact that Scotland's entry into the UK some 300 years ago was not exactly a mutually beneficial one was a factor.

However, another part of me realized the potential risks of independence. The precedent alone would certainly cause strife in numerous other countries, especially Spain and Canada, who have had their own share of people wanting to carve up their respective countries of late. The weakening of the UK in terms of NATO support, not to mention the difficulties in getting an independent Scotland recognized by both the UN and the EU and the troubles that could bring a fledgling nation were also a concern. Heck, just the currency and election issues would have been potentially disastrous.

In the end, while a certain pride in my heritage makes me sad the vote turned out like it did, I think it turned out for the best. Nationalism is not the same as patriotism, after all.The UK got a massive wake-up call that a big portion of their citizens aren't happy with how they're being represented, and will hopefully move to rectify that, leading to a happier and more prosperous country.

Besides, ya don't necessarily need to have an independent Scotland to be proud to be a Scot.
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RPGZero
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In the end, it was Scotland's decision, so who am I to argue with them? However, looking at the fact that the vote was 55% nay and 45% yay meaning it was almost broke even, I cannot help but be reminded of an often mis-attributed Jefferson quote: "A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where 51% of the people may take away the rights of the other 49%".

Though I will argue that while yes, become a new, fledgling nation with a pile of issues would indeed be a concern, when has any secession in the history of the world ever been perfect? When the states gained independence, we had far worse currency issues than most nations do upon independence (the Continental was worthless) and a whole lot of other problems. Consider the fact that a mere few issues within the Articles of Confederation almost caused our own experiment of independence to fail miserably. If Scotland felt they could handle such issues and were willing to deal with the burden, then I don't see the problem. It's all a matter of whether they were up to the task of handling it like so many other nations that had seceded before them.
Edited by RPGZero, Sep 19 2014, 04:49 AM.
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Posted Image CyborgZeta
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Spain has its problems with Catalonia and the Basque Country.

Personally, I dislike nationalism, so I'm glad to see that the majority of Scots voted in favor of the status quo. Leaving the UK to become independent would've been disastrous, and I'd argue that being British is just as much a part of Scotland's identity as anything else.

Most importantly, I believe they need to address the issue of Scottish MPs being able to vote on laws affecting England. It is completely unfair that those MPs can vote on English laws, such as those affecting education, while the English have no say on laws that affect Scotland. Not to mention that Scotland gets free health care and post-secondary education while England (and presumably Wales and Northern Ireland) don't.
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Lowe Gear
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RPGZero
Sep 19 2014, 04:02 AM
Though I will argue that while yes, become a new, fledgling nation with a pile of issues would indeed be a concern, when has any secession in the history of the world ever been perfect? When the states gained independence, we had far worse currency issues than most nations do upon independence (the Continental was worthless) and a whole lot of other problems. Consider the fact that a mere few issues within the Articles of Confederation almost caused our own experiment of independence to fail miserably. If Scotland felt they could handle such issues and were willing to deal with the burden, then I don't see the problem. It's all a matter of whether they were up to the task of handling it like so many other nations that had seceded before them.
I would say that nowadays it's even harder for a nation to go from part of another nation to an independent one than in the past. Whether we like it or not, the world is a lot smaller than it used to be, particularly in Europe. Salmond certainly felt he was ready to make those decisions, but I have to wonder if everyone who voted Yes really understood the magnitude of what they were planning. I've been studying the issues surrounding the referendum for 3 years now, and I know I don't fully grasp everything. Would a 16-year-old kid have had the ability to truly understand what voting Yes would mean? The entire process is both fascinating and terrifying to me.

And the vote was always going to be close. If it had been reversed, I'm not sure I would've been happy with independence gained at the expense of the 45% who voted no. One thing Salmond and Cameron do agree on is that this was the will of the people made manifest. I mean, when was the last time voter turnout in any country reached 97%? I wish my own country could be bothered to care as much.

In the end, I still maintain that the most important goal was accomplished. I don't agree with Scotland's political leanings all that much, but I do feel that their wishes have been poorly represented in Parliament for years, and that now the rest of the UK will be forced to realize that Scotland cannot and should not be marginalized any more.
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AmuroNT1
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My only concern is the fact that that fathead Piers Morgan threatened to move to America permanently if Scotland voted no.
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Lowe Gear
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Isn't that like when Alec Baldwin threatened to move to France?
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NewtypeS3
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"Famous person threatens to do something if something they want isn't done" amuses me endlessly.

Meanwhile, I'm ambivalent. It would have been cool to have a "free Scotland," but at the same time... it would have had some really bizarre economic repercussions for the UK, Europe, and so many other locations. Would they have stayed with the Pound? Gone to the Euro? Made their own currency (the Wallace? The Scot? The Bagpipe? The Dollarpound?)? What about handling shit like imports/exports?

Not to mention it'd screw over so many people who live in the UK and work in Scotland despite not living there.

So maybe it's better that they didn't split, but I hope this means their grievances will be listened to better than Quebec.





...now, I can totally admit to hoping that States in the USA wind up being re-created to an extent, but that's another story.
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Posted Image CyborgZeta
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The political aftermath of the referendum looks to be a mess, and it's probably going to get worse.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-29292721
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-29277984

There appears to be a major concern that further devolution for Scotland will make the other countries feel marginalized (or further marginalized, depending on who you ask) by Westminster. Wales, Northern Ireland and England will all want more powers.

On a minor note, I was told that if Scotland had become independent, the UK government would not have allowed them to retain the Pound.
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Lowe Gear
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Cameron was threatening that, but it was one of the issues to have been decided over the 18 months before the countries split if it had happened.

And I'm not surprised at the turmoil, though I hate it's come to this. Scotland's whole reason for wanting independence was due to feeling marginalized by Parliament, but I think there's been an increased feeling of disconnect between all the citizenry and the government over the last decade. And now that the referendum is over, Scotland expects the promises made to be kept (since I'm sure several No votes were contingent on that), but this then leads to the other citizens wanting the same considerations, and not unjustly. It's a rough situation, and there's not gonna be any easy out.

They said the UK would never be the same after the vote, and they were right.
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Nabeshin III
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I think the UK will never be the same but wading into this as an insider working in the UK govt, the impact is being over-thought and probably not going in the way that a lot of people are thinking:

1. If the Scots did go for independence, it would have taken around 5-10 years to untangle all the public services. Negotiations and diplomacy would have factored into this as well as European input (which most people don't want but will have to face). As a civil servant, I'm somewhat glad that the vote didn't go through because it would mean that there would have been likely infighting between the chiefs and waste as people carved out areas. But as a member of the public, all the rhetoric from both sides really downplayed the logistics and time of splitting up governments in a way that wouldn't end in war.

2. Also, I really didn't expect the vote to go through. I was expecting it to be close but the undecided voters clenched the decision (aren't they always the ones?). The undecided voters tend to vote conservatively in any decision. Keeping things the same is always better than an unknown future.

3. One thing that I didn't expect to fall out of this was the potential for federalisation. Given the devolution concessions that's come out of this, some MPs seems to have begun to capitalise on some pseudo-nationalism by convincing their English voters that no Scotish MPs should have a say in English affairs when English MPs have no say in Scottish affairs. I can't say that I don't see their point but the argument here feels like the arguments against positive discrimination. Most of London policies tend to favour the south and the Midlands. It's not like they aren't trying but the culture differences, culture mix and the economic basis just ins't the same.

4. On Lowe's point about disconnection and marginalisation, this is the same across the UK and across certain demographics. Young people are less likely to vote when they have the most vested interest in making their votes actually counting. It's partially an economic opportunity thing, partially education and partially cultural identity. The majority of voters, given the terms of government, tend to vote for short-term gains. What the Conservative government is doing to cuts in the public sector actually disproportionately affects Scotland because the public sector there is massive. This fuels the discontentment and anger with stagnant wages and job losses. The problem is the size of government isn't necessarily sustainable. It's OK but the consistent growth and without a similar growth in private sector will mean it will cause a funding implosion sooner or later. What needs to happen is to ensure the North of the UK becomes the Silicon Valley of the country. Newcastle and Edinburgh are already moving towards this and the rest of the area needs to slowly develop an economy that will serve this. At the moment, London is financial, West England is becoming more focused on analytical and professional service based so the North needs to focus on tech. The only way is to move away from dependence on Govt. job creation and more into providing a higher level of education and ambition through changing the working class Scottish culture.
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Lowe Gear
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You pretty much nailed it, Nabe.
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