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I really wish this would stop happening; Ranting about dating
Topic Started: Oct 29 2012, 10:42 AM (427 Views)
Imperial
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The Rolling Man
It's happening again--the same thing that happens every time I'm attracted to a woman.

I meet a girl, we hit it off, there's what appears to be mutual interest and heavy flirtation. Then she goes and sleeps with someone else. That in and of itself is fine. There's not a woman in the world who owes me a thing, and it took me longer than I care to admit to get over that.

The rub is what comes later.

I get stuck deep in the friend zone, and these women (as in, a sub-set of women; I'm not here to heap scorn on an entire gender) actively work to keep me there. When I start backing off and seeking out other women, the last crush will invariably pull me aside at a party or send me some sappy text to talk about how terrible it is that we're not close anymore. I usually do fall for this guilt trip, and we start hanging out again, which is peppered with a lot of inappropriate flirtation on both sides. I figure, "If she's hitting on me so hard, that relationship is doomed anyway." But it never works out that way.

I start to feel incredibly guilty, or I realize the horrible truth (or a combination of the two): I am an accessory, a sidekick, a little distraction that the girl keeps around because she likes all the time and attention I give her without any strings attached. So she gets all she needs from me before bouncing off back to the boyfriend who she either badmouths to my face or pretends doesn't exist.

Case in point: The last girl I was crushing on spouted off things like, "Oh, I'm not about that right now," when I asked her point blank what her boyfriend was doing the night she invited me to a concert. Another time, she got pissy with me and started complaining about the term "boyfriend" and how it saddles her with all of these unrealistic expectations and obligations. Excuse me, but I'm not the one who slathered my Facebook with lovey dovey declarations of how much I love my significant other for weeks on end.

The most recent girl is pulling the same schtick. She gives me all of this double-talk about how she's interested in me, but her last boyfriend left her with so much baggage she needs to be alone right now, even going so far as to imply we could be together in the future. Then I find out hours later she's dating a good friend of mine, and they're trying to keep it under wraps. Even though she had told me just that afternoon that every guy in her life was in the friend zone, so I shouldn't take it personally. That pissed me off a-mightily, but I let it go because it wasn't worth the frustration.

So she takes the opportunity to pull me aside on Saturday night and pout/guilt trip me about how we don't act like we're married anymore (reference: she and I were cast as husband and wife in a play we just finished). I tell her that I'm not interested in trying to impress her anymore, at which point she says she already likes me for who I am and that her thing with her current guy probably isn't going anywhere. She spent the next five minutes trying to get me to promise that I would go see a movie with her this week (we had discussed it back before I knew she and he were dating) to make up for lost time, but I gave noncommittal answers before she said that she would be the one to call me some time today. So of course I wake up to Facebook this morning to find her all-but-bragging about the great day she's been having with him.

**** this noise. The dating game is stupid, and I'm tired of playing it. But every time I say as much, some self-appointed Master of Women swings and tells me I'm just too naive and inexperienced, that I will learn the game and love it some day.

I am 24 years old. I am entirely too old to be playing games.

If that means I'll die a virgin, so be it. I'd rather be myself and alone than a liar with women at my beck and call.
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Quattro
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Almost as good as Lowe ^_^
First off how old are these women? Are they in your age group or younger? Because I'll tell you one thing I've learned, a good percentage of women take till their late twenties to grow out of this phase. I'm not saying everyone you meet will be like this but it's going to be common, and there isn't too much you can do about it. You may want to look in different places or scene, as a suggestion.

Now as for the friend-zoning bullshit, it's one of two things usually, first is they don't' really know you're romantic intentions and they just think you're being super nice or are a really sweet guy or something. Second it's that they use you for emotional support, and in some cases, like some sort of servant or perpetual favor giver. Basically they use you for an emotional connection to fill some need. Notice how I used the word "use" I really mean that in the worst possible way, and the young woman you're dealing with sounds a lot like the emotional support one. If she is discouraging you form perusing other women, she has really no right to say anything on that realm unless she wants to date you end of story.Basically she doesn't want to loose the emotional friendship with you, but doesn't want a relationship either, so she's going to do whatever she can to keep things like they are. So if that's the case, I know but you probably have a good idea what you should do, cause it doesn't do you any good to keep things how they are. So yeah move on and see what else is out there. Don't loose hope it will get better.
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Imperial
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The Rolling Man
I am aggressively ageist. I only ever pursue women within a few years of me. The most "extreme" example would have to be my flirting with a 20-year-old when I was 23. That ended predictably.

As for the emotional support and servant/favor giver bit, that's exactly what it is. They want someone who will fluff them up and bend over backward for them without the need to give anything in return.

It's partially my own fault. I've enabled far too many of them for too long, which not only keeps me in anguish but perpetuates the cycle by giving these girls the message they can get away with this garbage. Positive reinforcement.

My problems it that I don't realize I'm in this dance until it's not too late. Not every girl does this, but I convince myself I've found one of those nice girls when she's really just another user.
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Quattro
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Almost as good as Lowe ^_^
Imperial
Oct 29 2012, 12:32 PM
I am aggressively ageist. I only ever pursue women within a few years of me. The most "extreme" example would have to be my flirting with a 20-year-old when I was 23. That ended predictably.

As for the emotional support and servant/favor giver bit, that's exactly what it is. They want someone who will fluff them up and bend over backward for them without the need to give anything in return.

It's partially my own fault. I've enabled far too many of them for too long, which not only keeps me in anguish but perpetuates the cycle by giving these girls the message they can get away with this garbage. Positive reinforcement.

My problems it that I don't realize I'm in this dance until it's not too late. Not every girl does this, but I convince myself I've found one of those nice girls when she's really just another user.
Girls in that age range have a high chance of being like that, thankfully most of them grow out of that for whatever that is worth. Sorry if I sound cynical it's more speaking from experience than cynicism.

Well it kind of seems like you're going the lets be friends route then move into dating instead of perusing someone for dating and seeing if you work. Basically try and meet some women from the outset and make it clear you want to pursue them romantically and see if anything develops. You have a very low chance of ending up in the friend zone because both of you are on the same page. But as for your friend zone problem, call them on it, like when they're basically getting you to do favors or emotional support ask them if they think this is what friendship is? Because for some of these women they probably do think the world revolves around them, and honestly people who just use other people aren't the kind of friends you want anyway.
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Lowe Gear
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HNH

First off, I will agree that The Dating Game is a pain in the ass. I spent 20+ years living my life miserable because pretty much every woman I knew either thought I was a pathetic loser or (at best) saw me as a "friend" - more accurately, I was someone they could vent at or commiserate with, until it was time to do anything social. At that point, I was essentially invisible. And finally, I decided that it just wasn't worth it, any more.

I have never actually "dated" in the traditional sense. When I met my bride-to-be, there was absolutely no romantic connection whatsoever. We worked in the same mall (I sold video games, she sold movies), had mutual friends, and mutual interests - we first met when I picked up the VHS of Devil Hunter Yohko, which happened to have been her very first "real" anime purchase. We were friends for years until some of our friends joked that we were both OBVIOUSLY crushing on each other. We both laughed because it had never occurred to either of us...until that moment.

She had been in several relationships that were all pretty much exactly the sort of thing you're describing, Imperial. The whole reason she was comfortable around my small circle was because none of us were trying to "hook up" with her, and then when several people we knew all started trying to, it made her very nervous around us. Finally, one day I confessed to her that I was starting to feel the same way they were, and that I didn't want her to be uncomfortable around me because of it. She said that she had never thought of me in that way, and honestly still didn't, but that she did care about me as a friend. I told her I was happy to just be her friend, and that I wouldn't push for anything more, but that if she ever changed her mind, I'd be there.

She dated two other guys after that, both of whom were varying shades of "meh". From time to time she'd call me to talk about it, as well as to discuss family issues she was having, and other such life issues. In other words, it was the same as it ever was, only this time the girl was someone I genuinely cared about: both as a friend and as something more. And while I can't say I was able to be 100% objective all the time, I tried my best to help her figure out for herself what she wanted for her life. Regardless of anything else, I wanted her to be happy. I wasn't trying to "catch her on the rebound" or anything; she was too confused and emotionally fragile for me to feel comfortable approaching her as anything but a really concerned friend. She knew how I felt about her, but that was really it. And I was pretty well convinced that was how it would stay.

Then finally, some time after she turned down her latest "boyfriend" for a date, saying she didn't feel it was a good idea to see him any more (guy wasn't a HORRIBLE person, but he was a pretty immature douche who just wanted to have a cute girl he could get physical with more than anything else) she asked me why I hadn't asked her out again. I told her that I knew she didn't see me in that way, and that I cared enough about her to be more concerned with her being happy than something like that. I told her that - more than anything else - love was a choice. Infatuation and lust might be the stimulus of a romantic relationship, but in the end you're with someone because you CHOOSE to be. You CHOOSE to accept them as they are, you CHOOSE to support them, you CHOOSE to spend your life with them. I told her again that I had deep feelings for her, but that I had chosen to remain her friend first, since that was what she really needed most.

She told me she was really glad for that...and that she wanted to CHOOSE to love me, since I was the only guy she knew who cared enough about her to want her to be happy more than anything else. And that was what made her care about me.

That was about 13 years ago, more or less. Since then, she and I have fought like cats & dogs, dealt with the loss of family members, tried to better ourselves as people, gone from clueless young adults to slightly less clueless regular adults, gotten engaged, set a date, postponed said date, set it again, delayed it again, and are now looking at trying to finally tie the knot this coming Spring. We're closer now than we were then, not because we were just magically forever in love or anything, but because we both worked our asses off trying to what the other person needed.

If you're looking for the point in all this, I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm not trying to convince you to "play the Game", since as far as that goes I'm pretty much the biggest loser you can be. I never dated, never had a girlfriend, never even had a genuine friend-who-was-a-girl until I was nearly your age. I know how you feel, because I've been there.

Love isn't like it is in the movies, at least not in my experience. Love comes from pain, from effort, from time, and most of all, from CHOICE. If you're fed up with "playing the game" then don't. Screw the game. It's not worth it if you're looking for something they aren't. But don't let that convince you that you'll never find anyone or that you'll be alone forever. Focus on forging genuine friendships with people first, friendships where both parties care about the other and one side isn't using the other. These so-called "female friends" you keep mentioning all seem like they don't really respect you, which means they aren't really your friends. And if you don't respect someone, then there's no chance of anything good coming from associating with them. I'm sorry you've met so many of them, but you seem to have grasped that enabling them won't make it any better, which is good. You don't NEED friends like that. You need friends who you can rely on, who care about you and your happiness, and who are equally willing to both accept you and call you out as needed. And if someone isn't willing to do that, then screw them. They aren't worth the effort.

I can't tell you how to date, or how not to. All I can tell you is my own experience. But my hope is that you'll feel less burdened and less hopeless by what I'm saying, and that you can focus on just being happy first. Then, someday the sort of person you're looking for will appear, and you can go from there.
Edited by Lowe Gear, Oct 29 2012, 01:04 PM.
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Imperial
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The Rolling Man
Quattro: I've tried that, too. The girls who I ask out straightaway tend to think I'm coming on too strongly for someone they barely know. And it just feels artificial.

Friends-into-something-more feels right and strikes me as the right route for what I want right now.

To be perfectly honest, I'm not even all that hung up on the idea of a full-on "relationship." I would take friends-with-benefits. I want someone I can hang out with, go downtown with and finish off the night by going back to her place and making out with. It doesn't have to be an amazingly supportive thing that leaves us both breathless and starstruck. I'd like to have fun with someone with which I'm on the same wavelength.

Lowe: Thank you for sharing that

That's not too far removed from my POV. Most of these girls were friends of mine before anything else, so even after things went south, I wished them the best. I tried to do the right thing and give them whatever they needed to make them happy because, really, that was all I ever wanted. Who doesn't want their friends to be happy?

The problem is that it didn't make me happy. As much as I tried to be a decent person toward them, it wasn't reciprocated. You're right, Lowe. Most of these girls don't respect me. They manipulate in the same way every time.

That I was even able to resist jumping at the movie offer is actually surprising for me. I would normally have taken that hook, line and sinker. But I brushed it off and decided not to hold my breath. It is almost dusk, and still no word from her. She won't call.

She's two-faced like that. She has made a big show of talking about how close we are and how she wanted us to spend all of this time together after the show, but she only ever gave me excuses when I tried to make that a reality. Yet she expects me to be her sidekick on command. I can't tell you how many times she's scolded me for leaving one of her parties early, as if I'm at fault for having stuff I want to do the next morning.

It's too bad. We were great friends, but as soon as it became clear I was attracted, she began acting like she owned me.
Edited by Imperial, Oct 29 2012, 01:17 PM.
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RPGZero
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Break only rules created by men, uphold only what is true and everlasting

Bro, it's called being self-confident to leave behind the subset of friends/subculture/neighborhood/same kinds of people or at least the situations you are used to/whatever behind for a better life. I know you already sort of admitted it, but you seriously need to realize that things like this are not one-sided and its not simply the other person's fault. You feed this kind of thing because you let it happen. You keep saying, "Yes" when they call back and say what they say. You need to go out and look for people who respect you. But, even before that, you need to be a person who is respectable by learning to walk away from this kind of thing. Take some personal responsibility. It's true that the girls in your life for whatever reason and needy and power hungry, but you need to learn when to stand up and walk away.

While my past situations were different from yours, my life used to contain people who would walk in and out as they pleased, having me as their best friend one minute and then forgetting me the next. I had to realize that enough was enough and get the common sense to walk away and never look back.

I don't know if you've ever read Bret Easton Ellis' book or seen the adaption, "Rules of Attraction", but you remind me of the girl in the book/movie. Eventually, you find that you're a different kind of person from the world you're trying to live in, and that world you're trying to live in is just going to tear you up and destroy you inside out.
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Akito10
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Norman freakin' Jayden

I'm not sure how I personally feel about romance. I've been off and on with a few people, a good 50% of those times it being long distance. I lost my virginity to a good friend, and we never let it be anything more than what it was - just fooling around; no feelings hurt. I prefer it that way. Sex isn't all its cracked up to be. But maybe that's just how someone who's not regularly getting it rationalizes it. Whatever.

I know how you feel though. Sorta. That was me in highschool. The guy all the girls liked but only liked as a friend, or as someone to bitch about their boyfriends to. At some point I became numb to it I guess; I don't really care. I don't see myself having children in my future, or even marrying. Depends on stuff I guess.

Wow I sound like a downer. I'm not really. I know some really good gals online, and while I'm getting my own life together, that's enough for me. You're four years younger than me dead, hell of al ot better looking and most definitely more social. Your time will come some time. Even a fat dildo like me is able to score now and then with people I actually care about and like.

But maybe it's because I go for masculine/tomboyish girls. They never seem to act entirely ignorant of the sort of Facebook drama most 'normal' girls seem to put guys through.
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gundamtotoro
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Old and Cantankerous
There is some science that decision-making parts of the brain start undergoing reorganization in early adolescence and don't finish until 25.

When I was 24-25 I thought that dating girls my age and slightly older should have been okay because maybe they've finally grown up. It wasn't. My future wife and both happened to start jobs at the same work place on the same day after we both swore off relationships and the stupid games involved in them and just wanted to concentrate on our careers. After three months of friendly co-worker status we decided to give it a shot. I was 25 at the time and she was 32. I felt we were at the same maturity level. Its been fantastic.

Anyway, I think it is great you are telling these girls that you are not into that game. Game playing is for assholes whose emotional growth is stuck in high school and there is no reason to get into that poisonous hellhole.
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PrayerReverie
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Junk Guild Squad

We are a crazy bunch, and I love the Guild all the much more for it.
Impy, I can't offer more than what's already been said, but I can tell you that you're further ahead in the game of life than I am. Much as it sucks and hurts to be friend-zoned, used and abused for being a nice guy, you have the advantage of meeting girls.

All I do with my time is work, train, eat and sleep, and none of those environments provide decent conversational material for most girls. None of those environments are particularly suited for even meeting girls.
I have no single female friends, most are married, and all of their female friends are either dating, engaged or married.

One of my teammates has a rule: he won't date anyone in their early or mid 20's, precisely for the reasons Quattro, GT and everyone else said. Mind you, the second part of his rule is 18-19 or 27+, so I only give him partial credit since he's about my age. But it's true enough, the last girl I attempted a relationship with was 22 when I was 27, but the two of us had different things in mind for the outcome of our relationship.

I'm getting old. I'm getting injured. I may not get accepted into Post Secondary. Two career paths have been closed to me, and a third is closing. I am the black sheep of my family, uneducated, unmarried, with nothing to show for it but a pair of medals and a long list of things that don't work right in my body.

Chin up bro, because I still have hope that I won't die a virgin, so you keep hope that a woman will love you for you.
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Imperial
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The Rolling Man
Zero: Yes, you're right. As frustrating as these women are, there would be no frustration if I didn't keep giving them the keys to the proverbial car. They drive me crazy because I let them. Emotions are a fickle thing, but I really need to do a better job of not letting myself look at them through the rose-tinted glasses.

Shini: The kind of women you go for is a very good point, now that I stop to think about it. I always say I don't have a type, but I've done a lot of thinking on that in the last few days. The one really consistent thread about these women is that they are what I would call "glamorous." They have wildly different styles, interests, opinions, jobs, etc., but most of them are pretty, petite young women who attract a lot of attention. I look back on most of them and realize I was just another guy sucked into their orbit--one of many. Many of these girls have a small army of guy friends yearning to be something more. It's easy to see how a woman like that would get a big head and how a gullible guy like me would fall for their charms. It comes naturally to both parties, but I'm trying to train myself out of it.

GT: Thank you. My only real regrets are that I didn't loosen up sooner or wise up sooner. At this point, I wouldn't mind fooling around with a girl, no strings attached. I used to think that made men somehow sleazy, but I've widened my horizons quite a bit in the past year. I think that commitment-free fling is what some of these girls were looking for, but I always convinced myself it would be somehow wrong, that I would be objectifying them as a sex toy.

Of course, even if I had started sleeping around, it doesn't solve the problem of many of these girls being controlling and immature. I'm sure most of them would only use the sex to drag me further into the quagmire, and get me to do them even more outrageous favors that force me to drop what I'm doing and cater solely to them.

Prayer: That age requirement sounds like a marvelous idea, and I've already seen signs of it in my life.

After I did my strip show (separate topic), a handful of the 'older' (anywhere from thirties to fifties) ladies took turns telling me that I'm one of the most wanted men in the theatre circle now. I was flattered and a bit surprised. I'm so used to double-talk and veiled insinuations that it was strange to have women blatantly telling me I'm attractive. When a woman butters me up like that, it's usually a way to calm me down when I start calling them on their BS and/or hook me into doing them a favor. How sad is it that honest conversation with a woman has become a novelty to me?
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gundamtotoro
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Old and Cantankerous
Benefriend status can be great but there has to be rules. Some people are okay with some polygamy where what is going on with other partners is discusses candidly and openly. There have even been articles talking about this being the new monogamy in all sorts of mental health magazines.

I have issues with the theory myself. I think people should be sexually monogamous still. Sex has us at our most vulnerable and sex with multiple partners is going to leave somebody hurt. Violet Blue did an excellent podcast on the matter but looking through the archives I can't figure out which one it was. I will look for it again after work since a phone browser is not ideal.

Anyway, I have had success with benefriend status in the past. It has its own set of hurdles but it can also be less stressful and have fewer expectation pressures.
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ZetaStriker
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It's Like You're Carrying the Weight of the World~
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Age has very little to do with it, honestly. I know a lot of women in their late teens and early twenties who would never dare do that to a human being, and the first older woman I dated did far worse to me. Honestly, I think you're just attracted to the wrong type of woman, in the same way some women always find themselves in abusive relationships. I'd suggest going after someone you get along with but that doesn't fit your normal type, and try to keep hormones out of the decision as much as possible. Treat the kind of overwhelming attraction you're used to as a red flag, and try pursuing something else. It's hard, but in your case I think it might be necessary.
Edited by ZetaStriker, Oct 30 2012, 11:00 AM.
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gundamtotoro
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Old and Cantankerous
Oh yeah, don't trust skinny bitches.
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Posted Image HF
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Haropenter Prime
@ gundamtotoro: Noted.
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PrayerReverie
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Junk Guild Squad

gundamtotoro
Oct 30 2012, 03:17 PM
Oh yeah, don't trust skinny bitches.
... now he tells me ...

ZS has a valid point about going after someone who doesn't seem like they fit the typical bill. A stronger attraction can arise out of it (just don't make it a long distance thing)
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Akito10
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Norman freakin' Jayden

My women gotta be thick dawwwwg.
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Imperial
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The Rolling Man
Shinigami Grahf
Oct 30 2012, 05:32 PM
My women gotta be thick dawwwwg.
I'll meet you halfway.

I know I said I like them petite, but I am horribly turned off by shinny girls. I go for fairly fit girls. Not in the gym every day of the week or super muscular (although I have found that attractive), but clearly keeping themselves trim with more than starvation-centered diets.

I think a lot of that fetish came from living with a pair of exercise junkies. The girl was practically a model, and the guy actually was one.

Girls need to have a certain amount of mass on them. Preferably, that is muscle mass, but I've gone for girls who have probably been called "chubby."
Edited by Imperial, Oct 30 2012, 06:39 PM.
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