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Rate Ep. 4.10: One of Us
Topic Started: Aug 19 2007, 04:50 PM (2,994 Views)
Fanwoman
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Toxokinetic
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* Jordan recognizes that Negatives and Positives would fight one another....but he seems willfully blind to the idea of Positives fighting Positives.
* inequalities and failings will be addressed when everyone is gifted? he's forgetting that nobody has exactly the same gift!

Obviously, Shawn and Kevin and Tess are living proof that PPP will object to that line of reasoning and fight it. Makes Collier seem a bit delusional. But then, he can take the powers away from those people and kill them, so I suppose there's that.

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* Garitty, Marco, and Tom, all in agreement...that's eerie!

Well, presumably they became buds while Diana was away and they had to work together, but I'm glad someone else thought that scene was kinda surreal. Tom being funny...? :blink:

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* paralytic darts?

Convenient how quickly they work, huh?

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Also... where the hell is Gabriel Hewitt dammit?!!

I'm thinking that plotline has played itself out for now, so there's no need to see him. Besides, you can't cover everyone in every episode.

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A person like that can't just turn good like that

You're assuming he took his anti-4400 stance based on evil intentions and not political posturing. I wouldn't assume that. It's not as though he was going to go from hate mongering to concentration camps in a year. Being in power for a decade or two can corrupt anyone, but it's not as though the man is a neo-Hitler right now.
:shrug:

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At last, we now know for sure that Isabelle was not part of the original plan, but what was with all the stuff in season one that made her seem to be The Answer? Ah, well.
She is the answer....for the OPFTF. Also that migth have originally been referring to her saving the 4400 from the inhibitor, although I'm still trying to figure out why she did that, perhaps it was just that she hadn't been influenced by anyone yet(but then why id she lie to Jordan?).

Are you forgetting the bowing trees in the last scene of season one? Of how she brought Collier in line? She was portrayed as a wildcard but primarily good pretty much all of the first two seasons. The easiest explanation for the change from these earlier implications is that TPTB changed their mind about how they wanted to use her. Pure good is apparently too boring, so having her struggle with free will is what they chose to do.
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loonyloves4400
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Ooh, good episode! Diana knows something is up, I think......can't wait for next week!
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Ranadiel
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Are you forgetting the bowing trees in the last scene of season one? Of how she brought Collier in line? She was portrayed as a wildcard but primarily good pretty much all of the first two seasons. The easiest explanation for the change from these earlier implications is that TPTB changed their mind about how they wanted to use her. Pure good is apparently too boring, so having her struggle with free will is what they chose to do.

The bowing trees I took as a sign that she has high telekinetic abilities that she had no control over. What exactly are you talking about with "bringing Collier in line"? If you mean the first attack, then I would say that his intentions towards Lilly were more to blame for Jordan's pain then any aattempt to do good by Isabelle. To counter your examples, I present the scene where she brutally kills the three people chasing after Richard and Lilly as evidence that she was not wholly good. At best she would be a anti-hero during the second season, although I would place her more along the lines of villain myself. In the first season, I would classify her as more of uncontrollable force of nature.
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Fanwoman
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Ranadiel
Aug 21 2007, 12:10 PM
Quote:
 
Are you forgetting the bowing trees in the last scene of season one? Of how she brought Collier in line? She was portrayed as a wildcard but primarily good pretty much all of the first two seasons. The easiest explanation for the change from these earlier implications is that TPTB changed their mind about how they wanted to use her. Pure good is apparently too boring, so having her struggle with free will is what they chose to do.

The bowing trees I took as a sign that she has high telekinetic abilities that she had no control over. What exactly are you talking about with "bringing Collier in line"? If you mean the first attack, then I would say that his intentions towards Lilly were more to blame for Jordan's pain then any aattempt to do good by Isabelle. To counter your examples, I present the scene where she brutally kills the three people chasing after Richard and Lilly as evidence that she was not wholly good. At best she would be a anti-hero during the second season, although I would place her more along the lines of villain myself. In the first season, I would classify her as more of uncontrollable force of nature.

In the first season, Collier was considered a baddie, and Isabelle causing him trouble to get him to leave Lily alone/protect herself was considered good. The same could be said of their interactions in season two, though Collier's role was much grayer. Until she got him killed, which was arguably for Collier's benefit, Collier considered her a judge, someone he wished would deem him worthy--these are indications of good.

When she killed those three guys, she was protecting her family from people who intended to kill them. It was self-defense. In that regard, her actions are not considered bad. Scary? Yes. Evil? No.

As to the trees bowing, the commentary on the DVDs says that's what they're doing, not that she's using TK. There was also no evidence of TK in anyone, at the time, so it's a big assumption to think that's why. Also, the whole structure of the story and everything involving Isabelle up to that point suggested her birth was almost a religious event in it's importance. TPTB didn't know there'd be more than six hours, so they ended it on a moment of hope, salvation for humanity--Isabelle's birth. The trees were bowing in reverence--that's how it was portrayed, so that's how I'm going to interpret it.
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Ranadiel
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In the first season, Collier was considered a baddie, and Isabelle causing him trouble to get him to leave Lily alone/protect herself was considered good.

Protecting yourself from potential harm is not inately a good action, and that realy is what she was doing, it is a neutral action.

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The same could be said of their interactions in season two, though Collier's role was much grayer. Until she got him killed, which was arguably for Collier's benefit, Collier considered her a judge, someone he wished would deem him worthy--these are indications of good.

And Jordan is always right on these things? Just becst because Jordan thoguht she was good doesn't mean that she was.

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When she killed those three guys, she was protecting her family from people who intended to kill them. It was self-defense. In that regard, her actions are not considered bad. Scary? Yes. Evil? No.

No the manner in which she killed the guys is why it is evil. She fully had the power to stop them through non-lethal means such as having them shoot out each other's knee caps or sending them flying with Telekinesis or simply having them freeze in place for who knows how long. But instead, she chose some of the most horrific methods she could have to kill them(one of them shooting the other and another shooting himself in the head). That was completely unnecessary on her part.

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As to the trees bowing, the commentary on the DVDs says that's what they're doing, not that she's using TK. There was also no evidence of TK in anyone, at the time, so it's a big assumption to think that's why.

Well you can force something else to bow to you, bowing doesn't mean that they have to be doing it of their fre will. When I first saw the scene, my impression was telekinesis and that really is the only thing can see it as.

Oh and I just remembered this, but didn't Isabelle attack her own father at one point when he disagreed with Lilly? And then there was the attack on Heidi. I will admit in the first season that there was not a lot that would point to Isabelle being good or evil, as I said I see her in season 1 as more of a force of nature. However in season 2, she was already at least begining the fall from the path of angels.
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Keenir
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Ranadiel
Aug 21 2007, 03:31 PM
Quote:
 
In the first season, Collier was considered a baddie, and Isabelle causing him trouble to get him to leave Lily alone/protect herself was considered good.

Protecting yourself from potential harm is not inately a good action, and that realy is what she was doing, it is a neutral action.


:huh: really? you gonna give me your lunch money then, so I don't have to engage in the morally-neutral action of planting your face in cold lasagna?...and so you don't have to engage in the morally-not-good action of trying to fend me off? ;) B)


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When she killed those three guys, she was protecting her family from people who intended to kill them. It was self-defense. In that regard, her actions are not considered bad. Scary? Yes. Evil? No.

No the manner in which she killed the guys is why it is evil. She fully had the power to stop them through non-lethal means such as having them shoot out each other's knee caps or sending them flying with Telekinesis or simply having them freeze in place for who knows how long. But instead, she chose some of the most horrific methods she could have to kill them(one of them shooting the other and another shooting himself in the head). That was completely unnecessary on her part.


you're assuming that people like them could be easily disuaded from pursuing people they saw as non-people and agents of Satan.
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Ranadiel
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really? you gonna give me your lunch money then, so I don't have to engage in the morally-neutral action of planting your face in cold lasagna?...and so you don't have to engage in the morally-not-good action of trying to fend me off?

Good thing I don't carry lunch money.....although defnding myself in that situation would be nuetral while planting my face in lasagna would be ba....actually I don't think lasana factors into morality in the slightest.

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you're assuming that people like them could be easily disuaded from pursuing people they saw as non-people and agents of Satan.

Knee caps, blown off. You try following people in that kind of condition. Have the three of them get into a fst fight for 3 hours or so and see if they still are capable of tracking you through a forest for hours upon hours. Break tons on bones, there are plenty of non-lethal ways to keep people from chasing you.
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Keenir
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Ranadiel
Aug 21 2007, 06:13 PM
Quote:
 
you're assuming that people like them could be easily disuaded from pursuing people they saw as non-people and agents of Satan.

Knee caps, blown off. You try following people in that kind of condition. Have the three of them get into a fst fight for 3 hours or so and see if they still are capable of tracking you through a forest for hours upon hours. Break tons on bones, there are plenty of non-lethal ways to keep people from chasing you.


*calls up friends and relatives who will pursue the Satanic family while I'm in the hospital with no kneecaps*

...and all of them have friends and relatives of their own as well.



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really? you gonna give me your lunch money then, so I don't have to engage in the morally-neutral action of planting your face in cold lasagna?...and so you don't have to engage in the morally-not-good action of trying to fend me off?

Good thing I don't carry lunch money.....although defnding myself in that situation would be nuetral


why would it be neutral? I'm taking your lunch money so I can get lunch (which is a good thing)...and since violence is bad, you should surrender beforehand and give me your lunch money.

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while planting my face in lasagna would be ba....actually I don't think lasana factors into morality in the slightest.


you sure? I always thought it did.
;)
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Ranadiel
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*calls up friends and relatives who will pursue the Satanic family while I'm in the hospital with no kneecaps*

...and all of them have friends and relatives of their own as well.

What makes you think that they could even track down Lilly and Richard at that point? These people weren't secret agents with a bunch of contacts and funds that could be expended in tracking them down. They were a few backwater extremists that chased some people from their house. If Richard and Lilly got a day or two ahead of these guys, and lacking any kneecaps I doubt the guys would be able to get any help for a few days.

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why would it be neutral? I'm taking your lunch money so I can get lunch (which is a good thing)...and since violence is bad, you should surrender beforehand and give me your lunch money.

I never said that violence is inately bad, killing when there are other alternatives is evil. Violence to defend yourself, short of killing and absolutely destroying a person's life, is a nuetral act. In your example, because you are threatening me, even if it is one of the weakest threats ever, then I have every right to do what is neccesary to protect myself.
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cinder_chick
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Ranadiel
Aug 22 2007, 05:10 AM
The bowing trees I took as a sign that she has high telekinetic abilities that she had no control over.

I saw it that way too. Lily was in labour at the time.
Firefly quote of the week:
Kaylee: Everone's got someone but me. Wash tell me I'm pretty.
Wash: Were I unwed I'd take you in a manly fashion.
Kaylee: Coz I'm pretty?
Wash: Coz your pretty.
(Hearts of Gold).
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