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Rate Ep. 3.10: The Starzl Mutation
Topic Started: Aug 6 2006, 03:43 PM (4,796 Views)
Keenir
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come on guys i knows its funny and cute, but the whole shes only "TWO YEAR" old argument is getting old.


Is it suddenly not true? *confused*

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Were not talking about 2 in the old world sense, after all they are creating a new world right?


You're right....why should the characters on the show be restrained by old-fashioned morality....
* Shawn should kill as many people as he wants, and not feel guilty about it.
* age doesn't matter, so who should Maia marry in the next year or two? (c'mon, she already knows the future, so that's grown-up enough). Probably Marco, as she likes Marco.
* Tom should kill Ryland, so he can't watch his friend sink deeper into the morass of corporation and shades-of-grey.


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so why think by old world standards, but dont trip im not going to get to literal with that translation, you guys already know...furthemore im glad you listen to the producers,


No, I listen to the show.

the producers can say Diana is a Reform Jew, or a Mormon, but I won't believe either until there's at least a reference to either on the series. (and saying "Jesus!" like she did in the Starzl Mutation doesn't mean she's Christian).

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then you should be on my side, and believe that her love for him is true and pure and her motives are honest, and based solely on him and doing right


....just like Torquemada's (Chief Inquisitor for Isabella's Spain) motives are honest, and Adolf Hitler's motives were based on love of his country, and...


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Keenir
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Who 'choses' to go rogue? What about the lady with the boils on her hands? What about Shawn himself, with Maia?

What's the word for a citizen who sets out to do a great deal of damage to his or her own nation? (think of Dahmer, or the shoe bomber)

I told you it was a bad term. Ah here we go, a 4400 that breaks the law. Oh and if you were trying to direct me towards terrorists, then it only applies if they use their powers to perform terrorist actions. So anyways the new wording is, "Alright, making defenses against 4400 that decide to break the law is one thing. Making a military unit with the sole intent of killing off citizens of your own nation is something completely different(which was what I got as Ryland's intentions)."


Do you want the government to form a wing to handle 4400 terrorists (remember TJ Kim's attack on NTAC itself?)....or do you want the government to have a wing ready to leap into action?


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And remember that Richard turns the 4400 into an army.

In a pre-emptive strike. Want to take a guess as to what they were pre-empting?(not saying they were right, but I don't believe they are to blame).


9-11 was a pre-emptive strike too.

Stalin was particularly good at pre-emptive strikes...he had people killed before anyone could kill him.


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But remember something that's basic tactics: either you fight the enemy at a time and place of your choosing, or you fight the enemy at a time and place of their choosing.

But is it wise in choosing the location of the battle to fight a battle that doesn't need to be fought?


You think Ryland's the only guy who has a beef against the 4400, or sees them as a danger?

You think Daniel was the only 4400 who wanted to take action against the non-4400s?

You think Kevin can be defined as anything other than a "loose cannon" ?


it's like the 1930s or the 1840s....the powder's being piled up, and the fuse is about to be lit sooner or later.


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Just because Ryland ultimately benefitted, doesn't mean that Ryland's the one behind this.
an analogy: many Jews died in the Black Death...does that mean that that medieval horror was the handiwork of anti-Semites?

It is just too convenient for my tastes. Everything wrapped up perfectly and Ryland's agenda progressed almost unimpeded. And the Black Death comparison would only work in no anti-Semites died of it.


actually, it's perfectly valid, because no 4400s died because of this little rogue soldier that you think was working on Ryland's orders.


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basic Sun Tzu: "He who knows himself and knows his enemy, will win a thousand of a thousand battles."

And they are their enemies why exactly?


Name one nation that the US hasn't made plans for handling, should war arise. Not plans made on the start of the war, but plans made years in advance.

During, before, and after WW1, we had War Plans for fighting the Germans, Italians, Japanese...we even planned for the day when the Confederacy demands a re-match.


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So....you're willing to believe that Isabelle hijacked Lilly's power of aging berries...but not to believe that Lilly could hear Isabelle in utero?

Since we have seen Isabelle hijack people's powers before(Graduation Day comes to mind), yes. Had we seen Lilly gain connections with people other the Isabelle then maybe I 'd be more inclined to agree with you, but we didn't.


...because Lilly was only pregnant the once.
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totallycharged
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this answered a lot of my questions, but i was a little angered by the writers portrayal of gay men --- the writers supported the stereotypes that gay men are sex crazed creeps who find and pay for men in the middle of the night. They have done an execellent job portraying minorities in a positive light --- from strong woman--- to succesful african americans and non english speakers ----- when there was a homeless individual they were always white --- there was no homeless other ethnicity ---- this just angered me and i had a difficult time with the rest of the episode. I am sorry
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AbductedWhileDriving
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Wow, you guys have written a lot while I was gone. WEll, I suppose I can only say the following:

Shawn looks very hot when he smokes (although I'm wholly against the habit). I'm scared if that's really what's going to happen in the future. It looks very scary. There has to be another way out...

Yay, my Jordan is back! FINALLY! Ha better have a darn good explanation why he was gone. This wait was killing me.

Posted Image ZOMG, I love this. XD Thank you, Leob!
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ketchupklf
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^I have to say, I kind of agree and disagree there.

It reminds me of the breastfeeding boards that I'm on who went all 'up in arms' when Desperate Housewives did their extending nursing episode. I don't watch it, but since I nurse my 2+yo I heard, and heard, and heard about it.

They should a nutcase mom who still nursed her 5yo like a newborn because she didn't want to go to the gym and had him decide to instantly wean because someone gave him a taste of chocholate milk. Yeah... doesn't happen like that.

In *that* case it was the sort of show that *always* shows the bizarre extreme... and it was a bit foolish for 'us' to expect fair treatment. *However* given how rarely extended breastfeeding is shown in *any* media... it *would* be *nice* if the TV folks went out of their way to educate a tad on how *normal* most of us 'weirdos' really are.

Soooo... back to your comment. In the way of "it would be nice if they showed the more typical gay lifestyle"... I agree. But I don't think the portrayal was really 'unfair' either because there are unsavory people like this in all groups of people.... why shouldn't TV occationally show minorities with character issues (or other such problems) too? I don't think TV should be required to show only the 'politically correct' versions of society.... but I do get what you are saying.

<Grumble, grumble... my 2yo does *not* nurse nurse 8+ times a day and demand to nurse in public! (Um, usually does not for that last part) ... Grumble, grumble>

Kristy
"All the world will be your enemy, prince with a thousand enemies. And whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first, they must catch you. Digger, Listener, Runner, Prince with the swift warren... be cunning and full of tricks and your warren will never be destroyed."
Watership Down


Short story: "The Tomorrow People on audio could not be renewed and the sixth season has had to be cancelled." [http://www.bigfinish.com]
The end of an era: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wU6QUpEYnFc
You will be missed.
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Keenir
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totallycharged
Aug 7 2006, 08:44 PM
the writers supported the stereotypes that gay men are sex crazed creeps who find and pay for men in the middle of the night.


There was, in all likelyhood, going to be an outcry - no matter which cultural group the person-of-the-night was drawn from.

a black woman? no way, not unless the writers wanted to face real riots...the same for Indians, Hispanics, and pretty much any other group.

(and it may've escaped casual notice....the guy drove there at night because he was hunting for someone to kill)

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cinder_chick
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Speaking of Jordans return, didn't anyone care that his body just disappeared? I know they were shocked when it happened, but then they just went on with their lives and never mentioned it again. Was there an investigation? Were there people out there looking for it? If my close friends dead body suddenly went missing I'd be totally freaked!!! And why didnt anyone suspect the future people of taking him? He did disappear from a room whose only exit had people in front of it, making it impossible to leave without being seen.
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Kaylee: Everone's got someone but me. Wash tell me I'm pretty.
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Kaylee: Coz I'm pretty?
Wash: Coz your pretty.
(Hearts of Gold).
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Ranadiel
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Do you want the government to form a wing to handle 4400 terrorists (remember TJ Kim's attack on NTAC itself?)....or do you want the government to have a wing ready to leap into action?

I want them to be prepared to handle 4400 threats, but I don't want them to be preparing to slaughter all the 4400 because of factors beyond their control. I'll be honest with you, had I been a regular citizen who saw the announcement without any of our current knoweldge(such as Ryland's involvement, the connection to Isabelle, or the fact that they know stuff they shouldn't know), I would probably think it was a good idea. The problem is the motive isn't to handle the 4400 terrorists, it is to eliminate all the 4400.

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9-11 was a pre-emptive strike too.

Stalin was particularly good at pre-emptive strikes...he had people killed before anyone could kill him.

I never said it was something they should have done. I was trying to imply they were only attacking because they got wind of Ryland's plans. Therefore, if RYland didn't have the intent to kill all of them they wouldn't have attacked(putting at least some of the blame on him and his plan).

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You think Ryland's the only guy who has a beef against the 4400, or sees them as a danger?

You think Daniel was the only 4400 who wanted to take action against the non-4400s?

You think Kevin can be defined as anything other than a "loose cannon" ?


it's like the 1930s or the 1840s....the powder's being piled up, and the fuse is about to be lit sooner or later.

So we should just give in to the "inevitable" because there is no way that it can be changed? Should the British have just surrendered to the Nazis because there was no way they could have beaten them? The inevitable can be avoided and prevented. Sometimes it is harder then other times, but just because something is inevitable doesn't mean that you have to surrender to it. Should they prepare for having to fight every potential power set? Yes. Should they be preparing for having to kill every 4400? No because not all of them will break the law.

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actually, it's perfectly valid, because no 4400s died because of this little rogue soldier that you think was working on Ryland's orders.

No it isn't valid because this guy only killed the targeted people(Starzyl Mutation), while the Black Plague didn't discriminate between Jew, Christian, Muslim, Atheist, or anyone else.

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Name one nation that the US hasn't made plans for handling, should war arise. Not plans made on the start of the war, but plans made years in advance.

During, before, and after WW1, we had War Plans for fighting the Germans, Italians, Japanese...we even planned for the day when the Confederacy demands a re-match.

Canada? Still how are a bunch of people who have a slight mutation because either they or their parents had cancer treated an enemy? They don't even have powers. What's next Ryland giving them the local Girl Scout Troop's roster?

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...because Lilly was only pregnant the once.

But we saw Isabelle communicate with both Lilly and Richard. We saw Isabelle communicate with Lilly after she was born. How can you not put the communication as being Isabelle's doing? Oh and before you ask as to why I can put Lilly as the one who ages things, it is because she suffered the side effects when Isabelle aged herself(sort of like that guy that could heal embreos but injured himself in the process.....I think I never actually saw that episode).

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Speaking of Jordans return, didn't anyone care that his body just disappeared? I know they were shocked when it happened, but then they just went on with their lives and never mentioned it again.

.....You know that is a very good point. I'd just assume they kept it secret in order to avoid massive media coverage of a scandal.
Click here if you disagree with me.
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ketchupklf
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Ranadiel
Aug 8 2006, 05:27 AM
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...because Lilly was only pregnant the once.

But we saw Isabelle communicate with both Lilly and Richard. We saw Isabelle communicate with Lilly after she was born. How can you not put the communication as being Isabelle's doing? Oh and before you ask as to why I can put Lilly as the one who ages things, it is because she suffered the side effects when Isabelle aged herself(sort of like that guy that could heal embreos but injured himself in the process.....I think I never actually saw that episode).


Isabelle also communicated with Jordan. I think that ability was definately her and not Lily. And I've really come to like your theory that Lily's power was rapid aging of living things. It really does fit what we saw in the eps.

Kristy
"All the world will be your enemy, prince with a thousand enemies. And whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first, they must catch you. Digger, Listener, Runner, Prince with the swift warren... be cunning and full of tricks and your warren will never be destroyed."
Watership Down


Short story: "The Tomorrow People on audio could not be renewed and the sixth season has had to be cancelled." [http://www.bigfinish.com]
The end of an era: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wU6QUpEYnFc
You will be missed.
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Keenir
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Do you want the government to form a wing to handle 4400 terrorists (remember TJ Kim's attack on NTAC itself?)....or do you want the government to have a wing ready to leap into action?

I want them to be prepared to handle 4400 threats, but I don't want them to be preparing to slaughter all the 4400 because of factors beyond their control.


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The problem is the motive isn't to handle the 4400 terrorists, it is to eliminate all the 4400.


You keep saying that....but the closest thing to that which Ryland says, is that all of the 4400s are potential threats. And he wants to be ready for an attack by the 4400s -- Knox, Tess, TJ, that plague girl, etc.



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9-11 was a pre-emptive strike too.

Stalin was particularly good at pre-emptive strikes...he had people killed before anyone could kill him.

I never said it was something they should have done. I was trying to imply they were only attacking because they got wind of Ryland's plans. Therefore, if RYland didn't have the intent to kill all of them they wouldn't have attacked(putting at least some of the blame on him and his plan).


All they need is to believe that they'll be attacked....most of the people Stalin had killed, wouldn't have killed him -- but he believed that they would, so he got them first.


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You think Ryland's the only guy who has a beef against the 4400, or sees them as a danger?

You think Daniel was the only 4400 who wanted to take action against the non-4400s?

You think Kevin can be defined as anything other than a "loose cannon" ?


it's like the 1930s or the 1840s....the powder's being piled up, and the fuse is about to be lit sooner or later.

So we should just give in to the "inevitable" because there is no way that it can be changed? Should the British have just surrendered to the Nazis because there was no way they could have beaten them?


On the contrary, I'm saying that, at this stage in things, a conflict of some sort is going to happen. Maybe it'll help, maybe it won't solve anything (look how long it took to get Civil Rights in the US)

WW2 would've looked very different had it been fought a few years earlier or a few years later.

Maybe I picked a bad analogy (it happens)....I should've compared it to a forest fire. The more kindling, dead grass, and other flamable materials that build up {ie, the more resentments on both sides of the 4400 divide}, the worse the fire will be.

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The inevitable can be avoided and prevented. Sometimes it is harder then other times, but just because something is inevitable doesn't  mean that you have to surrender to it.


I agree.


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Should they prepare for having to fight every potential power set? Yes. Should they be preparing for having to kill every 4400? No because not all of them will break the law.


"You turned the 4400 into an army." -Shawn to Richard.

and remember the girl who had the buboes of plague? she wasn't willfully breaking the law, but I'd rather not have her walking around my neighborhood.

Ryland can't say "okay, I'll have a bullet for TJ Kim, for Gary, and for fifty of their friends, and no more"....because he doesn't know if anyone else will be inspired by Nova Group, or if there are splinter groups of Nova.
(look up the Stern Gang, if you want to see something that might be Ryland's nightmare once you add promicin)

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actually, it's perfectly valid, because no 4400s died because of this little rogue soldier that you think was working on Ryland's orders.

No it isn't valid because this guy only killed the targeted people(Starzyl Mutation), while the Black Plague didn't discriminate between Jew, Christian, Muslim, Atheist, or anyone else.


First you said my analogy wasn't valid because the conversation was about 4400s....so I pointed out that no 4400s died in the episode as a result of the mutation-killer.

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Name one nation that the US hasn't made plans for handling, should war arise. Not plans made on the start of the war, but plans made years in advance.

During, before, and after WW1, we had War Plans for fighting the Germans, Italians, Japanese...we even planned for the day when the Confederacy demands a re-match.

Canada?


Plans for that too.

Heck, we invaded Canada twice! (three times, if you count the Pig War)


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Still how are a bunch of people who have a slight mutation because either they or their parents had cancer treated an enemy? They don't even have powers.


They were a potential enemy.....for over a decade, in administrations of both political parties, the US had sent money to Afghanistan so the Taliban would continue to fight the war on drugs (and they were good at it)........yet we still had plans ready so we could fight the Taliban if we needed to.


So far, the only infant we've seen with powers (the only child of promicin-makers), has been Isabelle.....how many Isabelle's do you want in the world?
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